Dear Dream: What is P90X and Does P90X Really Work?
Posted on 22. Jun, 2009 by Dream in Exercise
Can you tell where this post is heading?
UPDATE- This is a highly controversial post that has been discussed in depth. It is also a poor representation for me as a writer. As a result, I have disabled commenting on this post, but please feel free to read the discussion, and check out the new updated post on strength training and P90x. Thank you.
What is P90X?
P90X is an incredibly (currently) popular DVD set created by Tony Horton. It has spread like a virus across the internet- primarily on discussion forums and YouTube from what I’ve seen (and am tired of seeing).
According to Wikipedia…
The P90X system is a 90-day workout routine that uses a technique called “muscle confusion,” a technique that prevents exercise plateauing by varying exercises over days and weeks such that the body has difficulty adapting. The system includes strength training, cardio, and stretching. Notably, in addition to pull-up and push-up emphasizing workouts, the system also stresses overall body fitness by including plyometrics (jump training), yoga, and kenpo.
I’ve underlined a few points of interest.
1. Muscle Confusion
Muscle confusion is indeed a real, applicable concept- and one that should not be ignored. However, the degree to which this program “confuses” you is ridiculous. It’s a constant jumble of physical activity (notice I did not say exercise), never allowing for any legitimate progression for 95% of the population with average genetic potential and recovery ability.
But hey, it sounds nice on paper- to the uninformed individual- and looks great on that graph. They even have it color coded, sweet.
2. Strength Training
Strength training is awesome, I can’t recommend lifting weights (or even body weight exercises) enough- even if you do it in a completely different fashion than myself. However, the manner in which many (all?) of the exercises are done in P90x is unsafe and ineffective. Exercise should be a series of carefully controlled movements under a moderate to heavy resistance to provide a meaningful intensity in the activity- one significant enough to cause (not directly produce) positive physiological adaptations by the body.
Furthermore, P90x is a 6 (with an optional 7th) day a week exercise program. While not every day is scheduled for strength training, exercising in any manner 6 days a week is downright counterproductive to optimal results.
You simply can’t stand anywhere near that much productive exercise, regardless of genetics, diet, rest, and so forth.
3. Cardio
Apparently there is an entire Wikipedia page for “cardio”, which is funny because cardio isn’t even a word. At best it’s a slang term based on archaic misconceptions about exercise physiology.
While “cardio” warrants an entire series of posts, the short version is that it doesn’t exist the way most people- including Mr. Tony Horton- believe it to exist.
The truth is that the quality of your cardiovascular system reflects the quality of the exercise you perform- quality being equal to intensity in this instance. Low intensity steady state activities do less than nothing in the way of positive adaptations for the heart, lungs, and everything in between. “Less” because that type of activity produces a lot of free radical (inflammatory) damage to all areas of the body- among other downsides.
Going further, cardio ignores the fact that “mechanical work is mechanical work” (as Doug Mcguff pus it). Your heart, lungs, and muscles only deal in terms of what is required of them (meaning they don’t have the ability to conceptualize and romanticize the activity you are performing, unlike your brain). You require the muscles in your legs to contract when you run, squat, or perform a leg press. They have no idea what activity you are doing, they just (attempt to) CONTRACT when you need them to.
When they contract, they need fuel. The heart and lungs deal with providing fuel when it comes to exercise, period. They have no idea if you are walking, jogging, or performing a bench press. The muscles need fuel, and the organs provide.
Can they adapt to specific activities such as sprinting? Yes, but that’s not a matter of exercise then, it’s a matter of training for a specific motor function or skill- a separate field all together.
4. Stretching
I don’t feel that stretching is an inherently bad thing- I wake up all the time and randomly stretch all the while roaring like a bear- but the notion that you can lengthen your muscles is false. It can’t be done. You can make them grow through proper exercise, sure. But they will never actually get any “longer”.
Also, trying “to rip your muscle from it’s connective tissue” as said in Body by Science is NOT healthy. Doing so in an attempt to increase your “flexibility” is a downright dangerous move.
Flexibility is increased as you become stronger and perform exercises through a full range of motion.
…
Further Wikipedia details
On these days, a 15-minute Abs session is included after the regular workouts. Days 2, 4, and 6 are for the cardio-related exercises: plyometrics, yoga, and kenpo, respectively.
Drew Baye wrote an excellent article on abs here. In summary, exercise must be brief, intense, and infrequent to be beneficial. For a particular exercise, the duration should last no longer than about 90 seconds- not 15 minutes. Attempting to split your abs into a “total ab routine” or something to that effect is entirely useless. Your abs are supporting muscles and are used when you perform intense compound exercises- particularity anything that requires a “pulling” motion. As Drew points out- and backs with personal results- direct abdominal work is not even necessary for “6 pack abs”.
I suspect that P90X also buys into the conventional lore (or at least leaves the customer to believe so) of spot reduction- the notion that you can burn fat off a particular area of the body. In the case of these ab sessions (Ab Ribber X?) that seems to be what is supported- that you can overwork your abs in an attempt to burn fat off the surrounding area. This is literally impossible.
Weeks 4, 8, and 13 are designated “rest” weeks which don’t include strength training but instead consist entirely of the cardio-related exercises with core synergistics and stretching added in as well.
More nonsense. As previously discussed, cardio is a fallacy the way P90X views it. Performing it as a way to “rest” in between excessive volume and a lack of intensity in workouts is downright ridiculous. “Core synergistic s and stretching” seem like a ploy to eat up your time in this scenario and make you feel like you are doing something positive with your time- when in fact you are not.
The workout can also be modified into the “lean” or “doubles” versions.
This statement suggests that P90X buys into the false notion that burning calories through exercise is an effective way to lower body fat levels. Drew Baye wrote an article on why this is not ideal, let alone necessary, which you can find here. In short, the calories burnt directly through exercise are minimal at best. Low intensity exercise also destroys muscle without stimulating it to grow- eventually slowing your metabolism. In a long enough time span, this can actually lead to an increase in body fat levels if done to an extreme degree.
Along with the workout, there is a P90X diet plan as well.
Considering all the non sense P90x buys into in terms of exercise, I can only fathom the stupidity of the nutrition plan. Whatever it is, stay the hell away from it.
Other considerations
Tony Horton is indeed in good shape. However, this has absolutely nothing to do with his exercise program. Mr Horton would be in about the same shape- and possibly even better- if he were to perform a typical Pop Warner Football Cheerleader workout, which last I remember from 7th grade included a lap around the football field and then practicing various cheers.
Humor aside, his workout program has nothing to do with his results. He is a genetic anomaly, and buying into what he sells will not get you his results. Fortunately, real results require far less time and complexity- and are far safer.
But what about the celebrities!? Surely Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore wouldn’t lie to me.
Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore know absolutely nothing useful about exercise. It amazes me how far celebrity endorsement will take a product.
Never look to Hollywood for advice on exercise and nutrition.
That should go without saying, but apparently a lot of people still buy into endorsed/Hollywood products like P90x, the “300″ workout, the “fight club” workout, the wolverine workout, and so on.
In summary
No, P90x does not work. If I were to sit down and create a DVD home exercise program, and wanted it to be the worst product imaginable in terms of results for the consumer, the end result would be eerily similar to P90x. P90x buys into damn near every false notion about exercise ever produced by the main stream fitness industry, and compounds upon them even further- as if trying to ingrain that the concepts “work”, when in fact they don’t.
I believe there is a very real possibility that P90X was created specifically around these misconceptions to sell exceedingly well, all the while knowing how ineffective they were.
After all, people love to hear what they already believe, and P90x serves no purpose other than as a drain on people’s wallets, both immediately and in time wasted that would have been better spent reading a book, socializing, creating something, or even staring at a ceiling fan trying to watch the blades spin.
-Dream
Wow. That’s one helluva strong post. I work the hell out of myself to stay in the shape I’m in (see my blog for proof), and I’ve been trying to talk myself into making the ‘investment’ in P90X assuming it would kick my ass more than I ever could… but after reading this post I’m thinking I kick my own ass way more than P90X ever could. I totally agree with you about the concepts … if they are skewed the way you say they are then YES, they are totally off base with everything they are ‘teaching’… just makes it harder for people like us to make others see the truths when this kind of marketing suckers buyers in with half-truths and gimmicks they WANT to believe but should NOT.
thanks for the heads up. I’ll invest in another set of dumbbells before I’ll consider bothering with P90X.
GWNN
Hey Jackie
Good to see you on here. I saw your guest post on Honey and Lance not long ago.
Yes, money would be much better spent on a set of dumbbells, a barbell set, or even a $20 book like Body by Science.
thanks for the kind words
-Dream
Hey Dream, thanks for the note, glad you saw my post on H&L. Had a lot of fun doing it. Kinda hoping they’ll invite me back sometime!!
Love your blog!
J
I was doing P90X for about a month before I saw Dream’s post on Tynan’s forum about BBS. At the time I was very much in P90X mode, but thought about BBS often.
About 70 days into the 90 day program, I decided to read Body by Science and pretty much immediately stopped P90X, giving myself about 7 days of recovery before starting on the Big 5 (did my second Big 5 on Sunday).
So, is P90X a sham? I really don’t think so.
Like most workout programs, no, it does not align with the ideal BBS philosophies. Nevertheless, I found it to be a very valuable program for someone that doesn’t have much experience with or motivation to exercise and is looking for an easy way to get involved.
Working out everyday is not ideal for muscle development but it is an important step in making a commitment to improving your body and health. Even if proper exercise shouldn’t be performed on a daily basis proper nutrition certainly should and a daily workout program can be a huge mental boost in creating a new, healthy lifestyle.
I saw results from P90X and saw results in about 3-4 friends of mine that started before me. The workouts are a bit more than necessary, clearly, but they are of sufficient intensity.
The main cardio components are Plyometrics, Kenpo & Core Synergistics. The only one out of those that I find was truly effective (because it developed leg muscle) was Plyometrics. But, it is dangerous (think twisted ankles) and not practical for the long-term.
I haven’t been eating meat since October as an experiment, so the nutrition guide wasn’t of much use to me. But, it looked pretty good, actually. I have an enormous amount of respect for Tony Horton after going through 70+ days of P90X. I, personally, consider it to be a high-quality product. I would love to hear what he thinks of BBS.
If someone told me they wanted to do P90X to get in shape, I would support them but suggest they read Body by Science when they’ve had enough of needlessly busting their ass everyday.
Mostly, I would just try to keep them enthused about improving their body and health because I do not subscribe to the idea that it is better to do the most effective (bbs) or nothing at all… Don’t do nothing! Do something! P90X is not BBS, but it is effective and if you’re excited to do it, commit to your health and do it.
-Nicky
Hey Nicky
Thanks for the comment and thought put into it. I’m glad someone who’s tried P90X and then later read BBS commented, adds a lot to the long term value of this post for people who find it by random chance.
I can sympathize with many of your points, but would like to add (and this is something I probably should have mentioned in the post) that the only “legitimate” purpose of exercise, is strength gains and increased lean tissue mass.
Obviously the benefits of exercise far exceed that simple purpose, but they are, IMO, after effects, and not the primary product of exercise.
I believe the quicker someone knows and applies this knowledge, the better off they will be by leaps and bounds. A related post to this point can be found at
http://baye.com/something-is-not-always-better-than-nothing/
Finally, I’m often times an aggressive/abrasive writer. I’ve never met TH, and this post was meant to be more of an array of my honest opinions than a personal attack on the guy.
Actually, AJ and I have been using P90X to get in shape the past 3 weeks, and have since lost 10+ lbs of fat, my abs are starting to show (a LITTLE), and I’m in killer condition compared to when I first started. This isn’t just a measurement of how I am able to do the videos now compared the the start, but actual ‘tangible’ results based on how much more I can jog up subway stairs, run down streets with recording gear/luggage, etc.
P90X is damn good at what it does (I actually ran it by no less than 5 personal trainers before trying it) and last but not least, it’s fun. I’ve spent only a few bucks on resistance bands and can work out at home. Baller.
Don’t believe the results? Check us out here: http://su.pr/1XVIu9
New pics with 30-day results will be posted soon.
-Jordan
http://www.pickuppodcast.com
The fact that some people have experienced good results with P90X is not proof that the same or better results could not have been produced more quickly, more efficiently, or more safely. The majority of research shows no advantage to training more than two or three times weekly, tops, much less six or seven. People would get better results training harder, but briefer, and allowing their bodies more time between workouts for recovery and adaptation.
The following are the results of one client training only twice weekly, for about 20 minutes per workout, and doing no other exercise. He alternated between two workouts, each consisting of only one set to failure of nine exercises.
From Feb 20 to May 20, only three months, he went from 161 pounds to 178 pounds, adding 15.15 pounds of muscle and only 1.85 lbs of fat. Since his muscle gain greatly exceeded his fat gain his body fat percentage actually dropped slightly (13.5 to 13.25%).
40 minutes per week x 12 weeks = 480 minutes, or 8 hours total time.
The P90X program would take up over 6 hours in a single week, and 72 hours over a 12 week period. This is nine times as much time spent working out, but in almost every case it would produce less rather than more improvement due to a lack of adequate recovery.
I think you should let this guy know how you feel about p90x
http://bit.ly/koLUW
Thanks Max, gonna go link the post to him now as he seems like someone who could really benefit from reading it.
Outstanding post by Dream. Not sure if there is a axe to grind here or not.
I too am doing the P90x routine. Been at it for about a week. I do think a further analysis is in order however. Most of the videos last about an hour. Factor in 10 minutes on the front end for warm up, 5-10 minutes during the workout for breaks and assorted Tony talk. 5 minutes of exercise transitioning and 5-7 of post exercise cool down and what your left with is a 30-40 minute high intensity workout.
Now I just came from doing crossfit type workouts where typically you would do 5 rounds for time of various workouts of the day. Actually you end up spending about the same amount of time as the P90X program when you factor in warms ups transitioning etc. of a typical crossfit type workout. P90X is what it is, a repackaged slick exercise platform aimed at those who like a little structure to get through an otherwise highly intensive exercise routine.
As with any exercise program one gets out of what he/she puts into it. And yes the P90x science is rather archaic. But consider this. How many people buy and piece of exercise equipment (dumbbells included) only to have it turn into an expensive coat rack or door stop. Sure there are probably better ways to exercise. I can only speak from experience. I have not injured myself on the program nor do I plan to. And even if the program does one person some good, then there probably is some value there. Even the Body by Science approach can be put under the microscope and the flaws (while not many) can be seen. If there was a perfect program believe me I would be doing it. I have also looked around the web and for the most part the people who do the program have good if not above average results. Most people are just looking to complete the goal. Think of training and finally running a marathon.
Dream has some very valid points, but should we throw the entire system under the bus of what it is attempting to accomplish?
DISCLAIMER- Not affiliated with P90X
Hey Marc, thanks for commenting. I’ll respond with >>>
Been at it for about a week. I do think a further analysis is in order however.
>>> I agree. There is a lot more to be said about P90x, however I’m not up to the task of viewing each individual DVD. I believe Drew Baye however is planning to make a more in depth post on baye.com in the coming weeks.
and what your left with is a 30-40 minute high intensity workout.
>>> I understand what your saying, but I have to disagree with the “high intensity part”. As far as I know, 30-40 minutes (non stop) of exercise at an intensity that will produce best results is damn near impossible. You would have to be nothing short of a BEAST to accomplish that much work- not even taking into consideration reworking already exhausted muscles in that long of a time span (which is highly counter productive). Or IOW you don’t have enough muscle groups to even work out for that long of a duration, effectively.
How many people buy and piece of exercise equipment (dumbbells included) only to have it turn into an expensive coat rack or door stop.
>>>>What your speaking of here is the lesser of 2 evils, which is not what I promote. IMO you are better off not exercising at all and only focusing on what you eat than doing P90x. This isn’t to say every program on the planet is a waste of time and “do it BBS, or not at all”, but P90x in my opinion is as big a waste of time as running a marathon, group exercise classes, bootcamps, and explosive lifting. Simply put, you should not be doing these things, any combination of these things (think, P90x), at all for the purpose of exercise, “fitness”, and health- long and short term.
Even the Body by Science approach can be put under the microscope and the flaws (while not many) can be seen.
>>>>I agree, Body by Science is not perfect. But how can it be? The book has to tailor to a large, diverse audience. It was never meant to be perfect. What is sound though are the principles and science behind the protocol. These are the fundamentals of proper exercise, fundamentals Tony Horton is completely unaware of (or at least, it seems that way). But hey, it’s intense enough to make people “feel” like they got a good workout, and it works for SOME people (not everyone), so it’s no wonder it sells like hot cakes.
I think it’s not a debate on whether or not P90X can get you results or not. Obviously if you’ve let your muscles shrink over years of not exercising then some gains are to be had especially if dieting considerations are incorporated.
The argument is that HIT gives you better results, for less time, more consistently and in a safer way than something like P90X.
It’s amusing that you would take potshots at a system and it’s users while you yourself spout ridiculous conclusions from questionable sources yourself. I am not a P90X guru by any means but I know of 3 programs that are so close as to practically identical. P90X, BBS and Crossfit are all cut from the same cloth and to attempt to differentiate between them and treat one as superior is an exercise in futility. Some of your comments are laughably ill informed to the point that rather than pick apart your arguments I will simply state that your views of P90X could be transposed with your views on BBS and it wouldn’t make a difference. Case in point your assertion that you have to be some kind of genetic mutant or freak to be able to do 30-40 minutes of HIT 4 or more days a week is ridiculous. I have been training high level athletes for years seeing phenomenal results from 5 and 6 day regimes. They are by no means mutants, they are what the rest of the world calls “athletes”! Any “system” has it’s proponents and it’s detractors. I suggest you come down off your high horse before you hurt yourself. Of course, this comment won’t see the light of day as I am sure hundreds of others haven’t.
It’s very rare I don’t approve a comment, and this is not one of those cases.
Beyond that I will not be responding to your comment since it’s apparent that you don’t understand the subject of exercise to any meaningful degree and you are not willing to look at new information.
*hops back on the pony*
Orleans said
“I think it’s not a debate on whether or not P90X can get you results or not. Obviously if you’ve let your muscles shrink over years of not exercising then some gains are to be had especially if dieting considerations are incorporated.
The argument is that HIT gives you better results, for less time, more consistently and in a safer way than something like P90X.”
Consider the following for a moment
A. Exercise as the primary means to burn calories and “get ripped”, simply doesn’t work, for anyone. If it does happen during excessive amounts of volume, it is by chance, and has little to nothing to do with the result of becoming lean. In fact it would happen “in spite” of that persons efforts.
B. The only legitimate purpose of exercise is strength gains
Not even taking fact A into consideration- the primary selling point of the P90x marketing/hype- fact B alone voids any use of P90x IMO, since it does a very, very, very poor job of producing gains for those of average genetic potential and recovery ability (some 95% of the people actually using P90x this very minute).
You don’t see those stories on the internet and youtube though, only the “success stories” which had infinitely more to do with diet than exercise.
thanks for commenting
-Anthony
fwiw, I think the only reason P90X can hold its own, especially in comparison to other video workouts, is because it is focused on muscle development…
Yes, it is much too much exercise.
Yes, it has ‘cardio’ components (I think this is basically a marketing move; people en mass wouldn’t trust a workout without it)
But, the reason people get results at all is because the bulk of P90X is about strength training.
At the end of the day, I agree with Orleans wholeheartedly.
Dream
I have been doing p90 which is why I stumbled upon this post. I would just like to point out that I have been getting stronger and leaner (mostly upper body) but that is not what this post is about, I just had to say I got positive results. You can call Tony a wanker if you want and I won’t get offended. This post is about the HIT and it’s seeming impracticality with regards to athletes. First, I am a professional soccer player. Second, I am always looking for ways to become stronger, quicker and better as a player. I am interested in HIT and do not have a problem in theory, but I have yet to see the benefit for someone in a situation such as mine, even though it is offseason for me at the moment. Training once a week is not an option. HIT is based on the principle of working to complete muscle fatigue, recovery, then once fully recovered, repeat. It also seems to build fast twitch muscles only when in a sport that lasts 90+ minutes, fast twitch only won’t work. Basically is HIT a valid option for athletes(mostly soccer players)? It seems to be aimed/beneficial for non-athletes.
I Look forward to the response.
Hey Kolohe
Yes, High Intensity Training can be modified to fit anyone’s activity level or schedule- including athletes. The most recent book discussing HIT- Body by Science- actually devotes a large section to athletes specifically (which I believe you would find very helpful).
Per your results with P90x, I believe this has already been covered in the above comments- Drew Baye’s specifically. In short, almost any program can produce *some* level of “results”, but the reality is the only true purpose of exercise is strength gains- everything else is a separate field and should not be confused as direct adaptations from exercise- and P90x does a very poor job of producing those results. If you are seeing any level of results with P90x I imagine your genetics would allow for dramatically better increases in lean tissue if you were to perform a once or twice a week session of properly conducted strength training.
As for becoming “leaner”, this has a lot more to do with diet than exercise. However simple it appears at first glance (as a positive thing), burning calories directly and intentionally through exercise is not an effective way to lower your body fat %, in fact it is quite counter productive, and done to an extreme level it can actually result in increases in body fat levels.
As for becoming “stronger, faster, and quicker”, this will come from increases in strength, and improvements in motor skill (from practicing soccer specifically). Trying to combine those 2 endeavors in exercise is not a wise or effective decision, and I believe you would have far better results separating those 2 goals into 2 separate activities.
I hope this has helped, thanks for commenting, and let me know if you have any other questions.
-Anthony
Ok… so you were a cheerleader? That pretty much makes this post too funny to allow for any real credibility.
Ha, it does read that way. Funny, thanks for pointing it out. I’ll leave it as is though as I’m sure most people assume I wasn’t a cheerleader…
thanks for commenting
-Anthony
looks like my post http://www.the21convention.com/forum/index.php?topic=73.0;topicseen inspired to you make this post.
Well things like “P90x does not work” is stupid to say. I’m getting stronger every week doing p90x from the convenience of my own bedroom. I know this because I’ve been writing down my numbers on pushups and pull ups I can do. I’ve only been able to do chest and back ab ripper +plyometrics because i haven’t been able to download all the videos yet.
I feel better than before each time after doing the workouts.
And things like “Considering all the non sense P90x buys into in terms of exercise, I can only fathom the stupidity of the nutrition plan. Whatever it is, stay the hell away from it.” are not good for argument that is if you really want to make an honest review, which is up to you, but its better on credibility to go the honest way.
Hey BG
I apologize if the post offended you- as it was not meant to- but I am at times an abrasive writer and things just kinda spill out onto the keyboard sometimes… =)
I understand that some level of results can come from (nearly) any exercise program- as stated in the post when I reffered to pee wee cheerleaders, who in fact do achieve some level of improvement from
A. Running around a football field
B. Practicing cheers
On the flip side, doing more pushups/pullups and so on provides no more credibility than a Vo2 Max test. Being able to perform “more reps” without clearly defining the variables does not count for much, especially when improvements in motor skill are taken into account.
Meaning each session of- say pushups- you perform, your body becomes more efficient in recruiting the involved musculature to perform that *specific* movement. While there may be some strength gain, I would bet my bottom dollar most of those additional reps are from the former.
As stated in this post
http://www.thedreamlounge.net/high-intensity-training-common-newbie-mistakes/
Basing your workouts on “feeling”, to any degree, is usually not a wise idea. I know it’s tempting to align with feelings in regards to your workout, but in fact it is a horrible idea.
This was not intended as an official review of the product. The title of the post includes “What is P90x, and does P90x really work?”
I believe it answers those specific questions, nothing more.
I’ve heard more about the nutrition plan since and it appears my call on the nutrition aspect of the program was spot on. I would be interested in hearing more about it though if you could so provide.
thanks for commenting, gl with your workouts
-Anthony
I’m going to read the book but I have a question. I am looking for anything that works. I’m doing P90X because I was recommended it by another police officer. And no I don’t eat donuts. Will this program or idea accomplish this: I might sit in a car and do nothing but get in and out and walk up a couple flights of stairs or across yards in a 10 hour shift or I might run 300 yards to a quarter mile, full out, chasing someone and then fight them, full out, for a couple of minutes or just start off fighting and then run and shoot afterwards. Any variation of the above might happen and duration varies and all this while wearing 20+ lbs of equipment. I need something that helps me do that without passing out or having a heart attack. Additionally I want to see my abdominal muscles and have low blood pressure/cholesterol/resting heart rate and fit in a pair of size 34 pants comfortably. Can this program do what I need?
I know diet plays in and I’m getting that in order. Pardon my grammar errors.
Hey Walter
Yes, and Body by Science will explain why. Essentially though, you need to split different goals, into different activities, and appreciate that the role of *exercise* specifically is muscular hypertrophy.
Think of it this way, added strength supports all other functions and skills. Added strength will help you run faster, jump higher, run up stairs, or wrestle someone to the ground. And the best way to do this, is strength training.
*Practicing* those specific skills will help you perform, those *specific* skills.
Now the error made by most people is to try to combine these 2 separate activities, strength training and specific skill training- hence we have the ever popular “functional” training.
It makes sense, but doesn’t pan out very well in real life.
In summary, build muscle and lose weight with BBS, enhance your strength and metabolic (“cardio”) condition, and then practice whatever skills you need to practice in between workouts, such as sprints, arresting someone, and so on. Just dont make the mistake of trying to combine all of these things into one single activity, it’s simply not the best course of action you could take, despite what everyone else is doing.
good luck and thanks for commenting
-Anthony
Makes sense. I wasn’t particularly concerned with the specific skills involved as far as this program goes but in the ability to sustain the activity. Cool. Thanks.
We agree that exercise is strength training, good.
One of the things that bothered me a lot about BBS was the free weight pictorial.
Most importantly, the squat and deadlift form demonstrated (pages 83-84) were horrible; heels about six inches apart, in squishy shoes….
Less important but still annoying, they demonstrated squats and deadlifts (and rows, and presses, and benches) with a weight I could snatch with one hand for high reps. I’m an intermediate lifter, respectable, but certainly not advanced, let alone elite. At least put 45s on the bar to get the deadlift ROM right!
Well, you make some points here – but one of the real and serious *key flaws* in your whole argument is that you’ve not actually looked at the program yourself.
“I suspect they buy into spot reduction” (they don’t)
“I suspect the diet plan is hokum” (it isn’t)
“I imagine the burning calories through exercise is what they’re trying to achieve” (they’re not)
I’ve not read this “Body By Science” but will check it out. I have read quite a few books on the subject (the kind with journal references and all!).
Like you, I was somewhat underwhelmed with P90X initially … well, to be fair, *unlike you* I’ve actually seen it.
The diet leaves out *so much* information about why and how this stuff all works in terms of macro nutrient ratios and so on, that it seems almost silly. You can fit all the “valuable information” from their diet on a few pages… then you get about 90% recipes to “fill space”
Truth be told though, the if you FOLLOW the diet on those pages, you will achieve the results that you want in terms of fat loss. That’s *regardless* of whether you understand it or not.
Secondly, I was underwhelmed with the amount of physical science in the program. Again, the valuable information can fit on a few pages. But where you and I seem to disagree is on the value of the workouts and the six+1 day program. (You’ll also find that some other fitness writers like Tom Venuto, and Matt Fuery disagree as well).
The P90X is actually a three weeks on and one week off program. However, in the one week “off” you do stretching, yoga, and core exercises.
I don’t know that you really must be completely sedentary to recover properly.
Next, the *reason* for doing the cardio (in the lean, doubles or even classic) is *NOT* as, you may know important in burning those calories while you’re doing the exercise, but is in fact critical in order to increase your metabolization of fat for the next 24 hours (or more) afterwords.
It doesn’t matter why you *think* you’re doing the cardio all the time, as long as you do it.
In Tony’s “Doubles” version – he even goes so far as to make sure he mentions “do your cardio in the morning before you eat for best results. He doesn’t go on to say “that’s because your body will be in an insulin depleted state and will be most receptive to mobilizing glycogon and therefore will preferentially burn fat” … average joe doesn’t need to know that to get the results.
Finally, the videos are *GOOD*, they are *FUN* they are *MOTIVATING*. While you do them, you get to realy *like* Tony. He’s a nice guy (on video, don’t know about real life). They’re high quality and they’re really good workouts. If you do one a day, for 90 days, you will, without question, show incredible results.
Furthermore, all of the information is in one place. The programs are there to complete and have great visual cues on how to complete all movements and variations of those movements.
Can you get the same or better information elsewhere in terms of understanding how this all works? Undoubtedly. Can you get better information cheaper? Yup. What I don’t think you can get is the *total package* all in one place. That’s the real value that Tony’s program brings to the table. In my opinion, it’s worth it.
I should also mention that the program is actually more expensive than just the 12 to 17 DVDs. You’ll need to be prepared to buy a basic equipment loadout as well .. chin up bar is another $50, set of bands $50 (weights are more), (optional) Yoga Mat ($20), (optional) Heart Rate Monitor $50 to $100, Protein Powder, Vitamins, Recovery Drinks Etc… ongoing costs.
You don’t have to buy the P90X brands for any of that stuff… you can buy anyone’s recovery drink (or just go with 1% Chocolate Milk which is said to be as effective or superior).
When all is said and done, I respectfully but strongly disagree in your assessment. (Tough again, writing a review of a program you’ve not actually even seen or tried? Poor Form) P90X is exceptional value for money & an effective program. The degree to which it is counter-productive only applies to about 5% of the population anyways (elite athletes).
Hey Alex
Im going to quote specific parts of your comment and then reply with >>>.
““I suspect they buy into spot reduction” (they don’t)”
>>>They do, indirectly at the very least with the excessive amount of abdominal work they provide. I understand you may feel differently, but the fact is that anyone that has an entire DVD focused on over-working the abdominal muscles buys into the notion of spot reduction on at least some level.
“I suspect the diet plan is hokum” (it isn’t)”
>>>I spoke with people who do have the DVD program (that understand nutrition) and in fact the nutrition plan provided is not effective- not by my standards and knowledge anyway.
““I imagine the burning calories through exercise is what they’re trying to achieve” (they’re not)”
>>>They are. The entire program promotes the idea that exercising excessively will get you “ripped” “lean” and “cut”. Again, like spot reduction, this is what they promote, indirectly at the very least.
“Like you, I was somewhat underwhelmed with P90X initially … well, to be fair, *unlike you* I’ve actually seen it.”
>>>>Alex, you are repeatedly trying to undermine my credibility but in the process undermining your own. If you disagree with what I’m saying in this article address it objectively and scientifically- of which you have yet to do.
“Truth be told though, the if you FOLLOW the diet on those pages, you will achieve the results that you want in terms of fat loss. That’s *regardless* of whether you understand it or not.”
>>>I disagree.
However, in the one week “off” you do stretching, yoga, and core exercises.
>>>The very fact that these notions are included in an *exercise* program baffles me, and provide nothing in the way of a productive use of your time- for the purpose of exercise and the positive adaptations available from it.
Next, the *reason* for doing the cardio (in the lean, doubles or even classic) is *NOT* as, you may know important in burning those calories while you’re doing the exercise, but is in fact critical in order to increase your metabolization of fat for the next 24 hours (or more) afterwords.
>>>>This is completely lacking scientific foundation, and as far as I know, is utterly ridiculous. Excessive physical (steady state) activity that tears muscle without stimulating it to grow will only slow your metabolism, not increase it. The only way to truly amp your “fat mobilization” is to drain your muscles of a significant amount of glycogen- even then the effect will rarely last 24 hours… (increased metabolic rate from added lean tissue aside).
“In Tony’s “Doubles” version – he even goes so far as to make sure he mentions “do your cardio in the morning before you eat for best results. He doesn’t go on to say “that’s because your body will be in an insulin depleted state and will be most receptive to mobilizing glycogon and therefore will preferentially burn fat” … average joe doesn’t need to know that to get the results.”
>>>Cardio isn’t even a word. It is a false movement based on archaic misconceptions about exercise and the human body. Doing it in the morning, or at night, on a full stomach, or empty stomach…are all ineffective and a waste of time.
Finally, the videos are *GOOD*, they are *FUN* they are *MOTIVATING*. While you do them, you get to realy *like* Tony. He’s a nice guy (on video, don’t know about real life). They’re high quality and they’re really good workouts. If you do one a day, for 90 days, you will, without question, show incredible results.
>>>>Exercise is a logical choice, performed for positive physiological adaptations by the body. Properly performed, it is rarely fun- nor does it have to be. It is probably not a coincidence that the videos cause an attachment to Tony- this helps sell his future products, and considering how much money is backing P90x, was probably intentional and well thought out.
>>>If you perform P90x for 90 days, you will damage your body, waste your time, and not get incredible results. I’m sorry you believe otherwise, but that’s the truth of the matter. Don’t kill the messenger, do your own research and I believe you will come to the same conclusion (take your emotions out of the equation).
That’s the real value that Tony’s program brings to the table. In my opinion, it’s worth it.
>>>IMO, it is a complete waste of money, time, and effort. There is literally no value to be had in the program. You would be better off improving your diet and not exercising at all than performing P90x.
Recovery Drinks Etc… ongoing costs.
>>>Being honest, this makes me shudder a bit.
You don’t have to buy the P90X brands for any of that stuff… you can buy anyone’s recovery drink (or just go with 1% Chocolate Milk which is said to be as effective or superior).
>>>This again, completely lacks scientific foundation- especially in the face of evolution.
I think you are over analyzing the whole thing. Whether P90X “works” is completely subjective. The program may not be designed the way you want it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t an effective program. There are a lot of people that have gotten amazing results using the program and following the nutrition plan. I personally lost 30 pounds and it took me from fat, lazy couch potato to triathlete. For me it was an outstanding spring board to being in the best shape of my life. My wife lost 36 pounds and looks better than she did when I married her 11 years and 2 kids ago.
That may not be “scientific”, but it is a fact. And I do have to point out that for someone who replies to everyone demanding scientific fact, you clearly have not tested this yourself. Your article is full of speculation about what the program may or may not include and may or may not do. That’s really not a “scientific” analysis of any sort. You are guessing. I’ve done 90 days of P90X and I’ve done it several times. I’m not a trainer or a nutritionalist. I’m a lawyer, and this fits into my busy schedule very nicely.
P90X is a great program for people that are looking to get in shape without spending a lot of money on gyms and trainers. Are there “better” programs? Sure, maybe there are. I haven’t done them and therefore wouldn’t comment on them. P90X is simple to follow and requires little more than effort and consistency over time. Plus, if you do the program, then you’ll be doing yoga once a week, which might chill you out. You’ve got a very strong opposition to it, which is somewhat curious. Why the venom?
Hey Dave
Honestly, I’ve considered taking this post down because it was written so abrasively it tends to attract a lot of negativity- and as a tangent, I don’t feel it represents me very well as a writer and blogger.
Dave, I would respond to your comment further, but I believe if you read through a few of the comments (including Drew Baye’s) you would find the proper response.
In short though, P90x only further entrenches and ingrains false, and damaging beliefs (and habits) about exercise. “Work” or not for some people, it falls flat on it’s face in the face of proper exercise both in effectiveness, time efficiency, safety, and so on (anything you can name).
I suggest you watch my speech recently given at The 21 Convention alongside Drew Baye. They will be released September 8th on The21Convention.com, will be 100% free, and will explain things a lot better (and less aggressively).
Thanks for commenting
-Anthony
The bottom line is that you can find something wrong in every single workout there is. The fact that you have chosen p90x should mean nothing to anyone reading this. You saying that a 6 day workout is counterproductive is laughable. A person that works out 6 times a week will definitely be in better shape than a person who works out 2 or 3 times a week. I also love how you backed up all of your positions with scientific references and then just pass off the fact that p90x is clearly working for Tony Horton as an genetic anomaly. Brilliant. Even if you are right, the fact of the matter is that it gets people off their ass. Doing p90x is without a doubt more productive than sitting on a couch all day.
Hey Eric
Thanks for commenting, however, I strongly disagree with many points. One I do agree with however is that you can find something wrong with every workout plan, so, thanks for pointing this out for other readers.
Working out 6 days a week is counter productive for over 95% of the population. This is not something I will attempt to explain in a short comment, but I suggest picking up a book titled Body by Science, which really digs into recovery from workouts in a way I suspect you have not seen before.
As for someone working out 6 days a week being in better shape than someone who works out 2 or 3 times a week, I’m a walking talking example that that is entirely false.
http://www.thedreamlounge.net/2009/05/29/exercising-10-minutes-a-week-vs-10-hours-a-week-results-profound-typical/
The only true purpose of exercise are strength gains- all other benefits follow in line behind that. As detailed in that post, my results skyrocketed by working out 1 day per week, instead of 7 days per week (for nearly 2 years).
Also, I suggest reading this article by Drew Baye concerning the “gets people off their ass” comment.
http://baye.com/something-is-not-always-better-than-nothing/
As the title of that post states, something is NOT always better than nothing- in the case of chronic exercise (a la P90x), “something” is certainly worse than nothing (something being very damaging to your body).
-Anthony
I can’t speak for Anthony, but the venom I have to this program and ones like it is due to the ongoing scam and abuse from fitness “experts” taking advantage of both the lack of true public knowledge of heath & fitness and the overwhelming amount of information available (valid or not).
Taking from personal experience, I’ve been searching for years for a solution to my fitness & health problems. Eventually you get to a point, through multiple failures, where everyone sounds the same, they all want you to “trust” in their method because it worked for someone, read these testimonials, etc.
I’m sick of it. I’m sick of the lies, the paid sponsorships, the useless supplements, the fake hope. Read Body by Science. You don’t have to agree with it, return the book if you don’t agree for all I care. It’ll be your loss.
Body by Science is the first book on fitness & health I have read that I trust to my core, not only because it works for me, but because the science behind it is real, and they don’t need you to take a leap of faith, or “trust” them without scientific proof.
To be specific on P90X, the root of my venom comes from a concept introduced to me from Body By Science. Health and Fitness do NOT go hand in hand, they are separate entities. You can increase your fitness but similarly decrease your health.
I would get into detail about catabolic, anabolic states, and how constant exercise decreases health, but I suggest you go ahead and read Body By Science. It goes into extensive detail about this.
I really would like to see how long P90X survives until the science start to shine through all the bull. You may look and feel healthy, but fitness does NOT equate health.
Anthony,
I’m 30 days into P90X myself. It’s worked well but I have felt it’s stress on my overweight body. My only question is that if you don’t do any cardiovascular exercise at all to condition the heart, how then would you expect to perform any sport that requires prolonged performance? The heart is a muscle as well is it not? I’m definitely going to be checking out the BBS book.
Thanks,
Tom
I do apologize if my post seemed a bit aggressive, but your article is really inflamatory. For example, this comment:
“Considering all the non sense P90x buys into in terms of exercise, I can only fathom the stupidity of the nutrition plan. Whatever it is, stay the hell away from it.”
A quick review of your blog indicates you are a big proponent of Mark Sisson. I am to. The Daily Apple is one of the best resources on the net. Sisson’s participation in the formulation of the P90X Nutrition Plan is what initially exposed me to his excellent work. That same nutrition plan is what I followed through the P90X program and throughout my triathlon training. It is simple, effective and was put together by some of the best minds in fitness and nutrition.
I’m glad that your exercise program is providing you with good results. That’s really what is important at the end of the day. Everyone has to find what works for them and you’ve done that. What I can’t understand is why you would take such an aggressive stance against a program like P90X that has helped literally thousands of people completely change their lives.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinons about this stuff. What works for some, doesn’t work for all. You are contributing to the dialogue so that’s helpful. I’ll look forward to your thoughts.
[...] 1100011CS Not sure how reliable this source is but he basically says P90X is not good for you: Dear Dream: What is P90X and Does P90X Really Work?*|*The Dream Lounge hmmmm, nice to know that someone "Dream" who has never used the program is saying it [...]
I stumbled on this post while doing a google search on p90x, and I am compelled to say something because the statements made in the original post are so absurd on a lot of levels.
First off, I don’t think a 20 year old “pickup artist” is the person I go to to for my athletic advice. I don’t think I saw “exercise physiologist” anywhere on your resume. I don’t see “elite athlete” on there either.
For whatever reason, you are very enamored by BBS, and don’t seem very objective. (I will pickup BBS, as I’m interested where the reasoning of this post came from). You should add to your reading list though, and add a couple of peer reviewed scientific journals such as the American Journal of Physiology or the Journal of Applied Physiology.
I can say that I personally know several former elite athletes using p90, as the philosophy is supported by our experience in training for numerous sports over the years. For true FITNESS, you do need to work out nearly every day, and there are no shortcuts. I have worked extensively with exercise physiologists and nutritionists over the years that will support this. Yes, there is a risk of overtraining, but that is less of a risk in a program like p90x because the workouts do change daily.
If your viewpoint comes from a body building direction, then maybe that is where our difference of opinion comes from, and I can’t speak to that as I have no direct experience. However, you do not make that clear, and it sounds like you are making statements about fitness and weight loss, and on those points you are wrong.
In my background as an elite swimmer, (almost-elite) skier, and now triathlete, I can tell you “chronic exercise” is absolutely necessary for peak fitness.
As swimmers, we work out six hours a day, six days a week. This is not counterproductive, it is required. The same goes for any competitive athlete. I will definitely tell you that in an athletic situation, the person working out 6 days a week will beat the snot out of someone working out 2-3 days a week as you advocate.
Your view on the ab portion are also wrong, as the 15 minute workout is not just for the external muscles. It is a full core workout, including a lot of strength building of the psoas and hip flexors. These are much larger muscles and need to be worked much harder than the external ab muscles to build strength (not just a six pack).
Stretch X and Yoga X are not time wasters, as flexibility training is scientifically proven to increase benefits of strength training, as well as the injury prevention benefits. Plyometrics are scientifically proven to be the best way to train for any sport requiring fast bursts of motion. (I actually wish they had included another plyo workout that you could do outdoors with larger movements)
As for the p90 diet, yes they absolutely could have done a better job educating people that want to do the program for weight loss. In the end though, this is aimed at a general US audience, and it is fair to say that most people unfortunately don’t have enough interest or knowledge of some very basic biology ad chemistry to follow a thorough explanation.
I don’t know how you get the concepts of anaerobic thresholds and muscle glycogen loading across to a general audience, but you are maybe right that the p90 folks maybe need to change the message of working out at full intensity to an “optimum intensity”. However, this method of training is a REALLY delicate balance between diet and the physical workout, and I don’t know how most people can figure it out themselves.
In the end, if someone is looking to lose weight, the only way is to eat less calories less than they consume. A diet journal and calorie calculations are the only real way for anyone to get on track. Most people though would prefer to live in denial of the true calorie count of nearly everything they like to eat.
I think a food journal is also vitally important to overcome the hunger effect that exercise stimulates. If you exercise, your body will tell you to eat more. This, I think, is the difficulty for most people that exercise to lose weight. They may, in fact, have an easier time losing weight if they skipped the exercise and just tried to get diet under control. This is particularly true for anyone with a lot of body fat and high insulin levels, where exercise will improve insulin sensitivity and reduce blood glucose, leading to extreme hunger.
For the person sitting at home looking to get in shape, p90 is a good option, if only because it puts them on a routine, which is hard if you work out at home and are not accountable to anyone.
For the record, I am not affiliated with p90 in any way. I just like the program and wanted to present a counter argument to what was written.
So let me understand something, you have never tired the program yet you think it’s a sham and it doesn’t work. That’s odd. What explanation do you have for the thousands of folks who have used the program and seen results? Or are you trying to say they could have gotten better results in less time or optimized their approach?
You pick out the key words “Strength Training”, “Cardio”, and “Stretching” ….what is your point with them. P90x doesn’t claim to add body builder sized muscles or make you an endurance champion. They do very clearly state that you will improve in those areas if you follow the program. To me your statements are leading people down the path that P90x is making false claims. Well, they are not. I am one of thousands that have seen success from the program. I’ve been doing the program for almost 6 months and have seen moderate gains for someone of my body type, motivation, and lifestyle. I’m 40 years old, 5’-7” with a moderate build and have a somewhat sedentary job (Manager in an office). I’ve always been athletic and have worked out 3-5 days per week. So how did I get to P90x, I had a physical and came in at a hefty 181lbs with high blood pressure, cholesterol, and triglycerides. I was looking for a complete package for good workouts, good nutrition, and something that was at a reasonable cost. After 3 months of the program I was down to 157lbs and in the best shape I’d been in for 15 years. My BP is now normal and I have seen my cholesterol and triglycerides drop to just within the normal range. No medication, just a good diet and exercise. My strength gains were average but overall I did increase in all areas by 25% – 30%. My core strength is better, my posture is better, I’m just healthier. Size wise I didn’t see a huge increase but I think that’s because of the caloric deficit I was in. In the 2nd 3 months I’ve leveled my caloric intake and have seen an even better increase in strength and a moderate increase in main limb size. Nothing dramatic but enough that it’s clearly noticeable. So for me the program works and I’m just like thousands of others who have used the program. I’m not sure what your point is or why you’re inferring that P90x is not a good thing.
Something else that I think you might want to do some research on, those who helped TH put the program together. I was reading on your Home page and noticed your recommendation on reading and proper nutrition, specifically the book by Mark Sisson. If I read your review correctly you think what Mark put together is some of the best information you have read on diet and nutrition. Not sure where this is going to go….you might not endorse the book or you might look a bit deeper into P90x….Mark Sisson was one of the main contributors to the P90x fitness and nutrition program. P90x has some great people behind the scenes, it’s not just all about their front man TH. I think there is some logic and credibility to the entire program. Is P90x perfect……no. Is it provided at a reasonable cost and have the potential to improve one’s self…..yes. So I’m just not clear on what your trying to communicate to folks with your information. I recommend you try the program out, follow what’s been put together then report out. Who knows, you might like or change your mind a bit and give people even more credible input.
Thanks for your time,
Aaron
Anthony, while I disagree with your comments, I do appreciate you taking time to respond to my post. I’m sure you were expecting alot of them by commenting on this topic. While your article does raise an eyebrow for me…at the end of the day, I just flat out enjoy the workout. If nothing else, it’s a fun challenge that productively relieves stress. Thank you.
Hey guys
I’d like to say I’m excited to see the overwhelming amount of discussion on this post today- supportive and critical alike.
Now, I’ll get to each post individually, in chronological order.
@Alexander
Thanks for the comment. I too am sick of seeing BS cleverly marketed to the masses- and although I did not entirely think through the implications of taking such an aggressive stance against a faux program like P90x, I’m glad this posts serves as a beacon of some sort, hopefully pointing a few people in the right direction.
@Tom
P90x not being a sustainable and universal exercise program is a major flaw, one I did not delve into in the post but is discussed thoroughly in Body by Science.
Per your cardiovascular exercise question, all cardiovascular benefits will stem from improvements in the skeletal muscle system- meaning, you can not take your heart and lungs out, and stick them on a treadmill (or other modality of exercise, as is supported by mainstream conventional wisdom, including P90x).
Going further, intense muscular contractions will provide all- and more- health benefits than any typical “cardio” form of physical activity. Or IOW, even a properly performed bench press is effective “cardio”.
As for prolonged performance, proper exercise will always support those types of activities in ways impossible to achieve otherwise. That said, if you want to perform an activity for a long duration, practice that specific skill, for that specific duration- meaning that the enhanced “performance” isn’t coming so much from the cardiovascular system (as popularly, and wrongly believed) as it is improvements in motor skill efficiency. Yes there are adapatations by the heart, but they are minimal at best in comparison to the learned movement through thousands of repetitions (running for example).
BBS will explain all of this in better, and greater detail. I hope you enjoy the book!
@ Dave
Thanks, and I agree that my post was inflammatory (a new way of putting it, LOL, the irony kills me). Since this post I have been a lot more careful at how I make my arguments- for everyone’s sake.
As for Mark Sisson and his involvement in the P90x diet plan, not only was I unaware of this, but perhaps wrongly informed (and, ironically this info came from the forum on MarksDailyApple.com!).
So, perhaps I am contradicting myself? And if so I would be interested in hearing more about the nutrition guidelines in P90x, if you would care to share. That said, everything I said about nutrition from Mark stands- I believe it is excellent. Did Tony alter it somewhat? I have no idea, but I’m interested in finding out =).
This next comment calls for some discussion
“Everyone has to find what works for them and you’ve done that.”
I agree, everyone does, but here’s the kicker- proper exercise follows universal guidelines that apply for everyone, of all ages, shapes, genders, and sizes. It is not exactly the same of course- each individual has their own circumstances and genetics to account for, but for the most part, we are all built basically the same.
So, again, people do need to discover what works best for them, but ultimately across a broad scale, it should be very similar for everyone (competitive/sport specific goals aside, and even then it’s still the same since those goals are usually best supported with specific activities that technically aren’t “exercise” by my definition, sprints as an example).
“What I can’t understand is why you would take such an aggressive stance against a program like P90X that has helped literally thousands of people completely change their lives.”
I was not in the right taking such an abrasive stance against P90x, but never the less this is how my thoughts came out at the time of writing the article. At the very least, it has served as a beacon in world full of false information on exercise usually based on little hard, properly conducted, unbiased science. I may create a follow up post, updating my thoughts, and arguing in a less polarizing manner. In the mean time, the post is what it is.
“What works for some, doesn’t work for all.”
True, but again, proper exercise is universal. The specific details may shift from person to person for one reason or another, but the exercise program within P90x is certainly not in the ballpark of proper exercise- not by my standard and opinion anyway.
@ Kevin P
“First off, I don’t think a 20 year old “pickup artist” is the person I go to to for my athletic advice. I don’t think I saw “exercise physiologist” anywhere on your resume. I don’t see “elite athlete” on there either.”
Questioning my credibility and trying to skew my history as a young adult for the same purpose is not a wise way to argue against my statements- IMO, you have only undermined yourself saying such things.
As for being a “pickup artist”, I am no such thing, nor have I ever been- and the same can be said for my event as it stands. The 21 Convention is the world’s leading men’s success event- in no way is it “Pua Summit” (puasummit.com). That is for pickup artists, my event is for men looking for better levels of success in their lives- in all fields, including exercise and nutrition. It may have it’s roots in “pickup”, but without question the focus has expanded beyond that.
As for the exercise physiologist and elite athlete comment- both of these things show your lack of understanding for the field of exercise. This sounds unavoidably arrogant, but it is the truth none the less. 99% of “exercise physiologists” are as clueless as your typical bodybuilder when it comes to proper exercise and nutrition- and the same can be said of elite athletes. Michael Phelps as a current prime example- and that candy munching NBA basketball player Mark Sisson blogged about a few months back. Neither of these people understand how their bodies work, and excel at their chosen sports for reasons outside of their training and nutritional habits. Mimicking those habits, or looking to them- or the vast, vast majority of “elite athletes” for advice- is a grave mistake that could cost you dearly.
“I can say that I personally know several former elite athletes using p90, as the philosophy is supported by our experience in training for numerous sports over the years. For true FITNESS, you do need to work out nearly every day, and there are no shortcuts. I have worked extensively with exercise physiologists and nutritionists over the years that will support this. Yes, there is a risk of over training, but that is less of a risk in a program like p90x because the workouts do change daily.”
Working out every day, no matter who you are, is not the most effective way to train- for anything. No on has the ability to recover that rapidly from workout to workout, no matter how one tries to juggle recovery of different muscles, sleeps, or eats (or even takes anabolic steroids). Changing your workout from day to day provides little more than a mental novelty effect and does not prevent severe levels of over training for 99% of the population.
“In my background as an elite swimmer, (almost-elite) skier, and now triathlete, I can tell you “chronic exercise” is absolutely necessary for peak fitness.”
If you truly believe this, I literally feel sad for you. As someone who’s trained “chronically” before, I can tell you right now you are doing little more than frittering away your time. You would be far better walking, or doing nothing, than chronically exercising for your health. As for peak levels of fitness, this is simply not true. 2.5 millions years of evolution dictated our exercise habits as being brief, intense, and infrequent. The aerobic system is believe it or not relatively new, and in no way shape or form the foundation of peak fitness (then again, most perceived aerobic benefits stem from improvements in motor skill, not the mitochondria or heart/lungs).
“As swimmers, we work out six hours a day, six days a week. This is not counterproductive, it is required. The same goes for any competitive athlete. I will definitely tell you that in an athletic situation, the person working out 6 days a week will beat the snot out of someone working out 2-3 days a week as you advocate. “
Patrick Diver of http://GreyHoundFitness.com went on to be the Florida state bike champion, multiple years in a row, by reducing his time spent training per week from the average of over 20 hours (for the majority of competitors), to less than 5.
I’m always interested in hearing counter opinions to my own, but what your saying is based on little more than out dated conventional lore and the emotions of coaches and trainers over the past few decades.
“Stretch X and Yoga X are not time wasters, as flexibility training is scientifically proven to increase benefits of strength training, as well as the injury prevention benefits. Plyometrics are scientifically proven to be the best way to train for any sport requiring fast bursts of motion. (I actually wish they had included another plyo workout that you could do outdoors with larger movements)”
This is more non sense- to be blunt. Stretching has not been proven to do much of anything in the way of health or enhanced performance- despite conventional wisdom. The best way to train for a sport is to practice the specific movements performed- meaning plyometric training does not transfer to other movements nearly as well as you currently think. Don’t kill the messenger.
“In the end, if someone is looking to lose weight, the only way is to eat less calories less than they consume.”
Not necessarily. If too many carbohydrates are consumed, no amount of calorie restriction will result in actual fat loss- only lean tissue loss. The body will hold onto fat in the face of incredible odds if insulin is frequently and aggressively spiked.
Check out “Good Calories, Bad Calories” for further info.
“I think a food journal is also vitally important to overcome the hunger effect that exercise stimulates.”
Correction, physical activity- the hunger stimulated from proper exercise will only result in the building of lean tissue and muscle recovery. Running around in your house copying Tony Horton on video will only make you hungry and consume more calories than you burnt.
Thanks for your comments guys, I’m going to respond to Aarons separately.
-Anthony
@Eric
I appreciate your thoughts and time every bit as much as you appreciate my own- so, thanks for commenting and providing great discussion for all to view.
Per your comment, I will consider blogging about stress relief as it relates to exercise as this is a common “last reason” for continuing to perform sub par exercise (in my humble opinion). In fact is a reason I held onto myself for far too long in the face of progressively declining results from over training.
@ Aaron
“What explanation do you have for the thousands of folks who have used the program and seen results?”
This is thoroughly covered the second you open Body by Science, or take the time to read through the above comments (especially Drew Baye’s), in this very thread. Please try not to comment on this that have already been covered in the thread discussion- I realize there are a ton of comments but there aren’t so many as to do a simple ctrl+ F search or manual skim through.
“Or are you trying to say they could have gotten better results in less time or optimized their approach? “
Drew said that, and I agree ( I apologize if you did read through the comments I was referring to). However, I believe the degree to which better results could have been had, with less damage to the body, and less time invested, is dramatic and grossly underestimated by most people reading this very comment.
“P90x doesn’t claim to add body builder sized muscles”
Muscular hypertrophy is the only legitimate purpose of exercise, all other benefits stem from it. Therefor, the best exercise program is one that does this best, in the most effective, efficient, and safe manner possible.
P90x violates all 3 of those aspects. Also, most, and I mean MOST, people do not have the ability to have “body builder sized muscles”, regardless of training habits, nutrition, and even illegal drugs. It’s simply not possibly on a genetic or physical level (regarding the length of muscle).
“Well, they are not. I am one of thousands that have seen success from the program.”
And I’ll be the first to tell you you could have had better results, faster, and in a safer manner, by doing about 1/10th of the volume and using simple free weights, or machines.
“I was looking for a complete package for good workouts, good nutrition, and something that was at a reasonable cost.”
I understand that as did Tony Horton. He saw an opportunity, and created a product with little regard for proper exercise- his interests seem to be primarily in profits, not helping others- and as a result P90x will fade like all other false exercise programs.
“.Mark Sisson was one of the main contributors to the P90x fitness and nutrition program.”
As previously stated, I was unaware of this. However, as much as I support Mark Sisson and his view on nutrition, I believe his understanding of exercise is lacking and not ideal- as stated in the review.
Thanks for your comment Aaron, I hope to see you around the blog more (I no longer write the way I did in this post, scouts honor =D).
-Anthony
In your post, you make bold claims, but you haven’t evaluated the program thoroughly enough to make them. I have a pet peeve against people who take such an aggressive stance against something that they don’t understand. As a scientist, it disturbs me even more that you are making these claims under the pretense of being even remotely objective.
It’s clear you haven’t tried P90X yourself; you haven’t even looked into the details of the program, or you wouldn’t have disparaged the nutrition plan (which, ironically, was partially designed by Mark Sisson, somebody you appear to admire).
You don’t have counterexamples to the efficacy of P90X – do you know anybody who has actually done the program and whose health actually got worse?
And with respect to the people whose fitness has improved, how do you make the claim that every single one of them is a genetic rarity? As for Tony Horton, if he were a genetic freak, wouldn’t he have been ripped his whole life (which is not the case?)
Your post is unfounded and biased speculation, it doesn’t even approximate objectivity.
Overall, I think you’re against P90X because you perceive it to be against your own preferred philosophy (HIT). However, based on the lack of evidence and knowledge that you presented here, I think it’d be straightforward for anybody to write a tirade against HIT with an equal or greater amount of integrity than your original post.
Lee, please read my comments from eariler today and let me know specifically what you would like to know.
Thank you for your time, and again, please consider reading Body by Science for a purely objective, unbiased, and non abrasive look into why P90x is not effective, efficient, or safe.
thank you
-Anthony
Anthony,
Thanks for your thoughts. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the exercise issue. Much like Kevin, I’m a triathlete. In order to survive 3 hour races, I have to train. I’ve tried to race without training the distances, and it has been a disaster. I will take the time to look at Body by Science. More information, IMHO, is never a bad thing. If I can make my training more efficient then my wife and my clients will all thank me. I’ll also confess that I love nothing more than riding my bike about 65 miles. It is just fun to go out on a Saturday and race round in the hills with 30 other guys.
I also appreciate your understanding that the tone of your article sparked as much (if not more) of the responses as anything. P90X has a large following and has produced great results for a lot of people.
Let me also say that I know Tony personally. I’ve been skiing with him. I’ve been to his camps. He’s been to my house and I’ve been to his. Tony Horton is one of the most thoughtful and loyal people that I know. Whenever he sees either my wife or I he takes the time to find out how we are doing and what’s going on in our lives. We are not in an exclusive club either. That’s just who he is. If you ever get to Santa Monica you’ll find him on the beach every Sunday working out with friends. They range from waiters, to engineers, to former Olympic gymanst Mitch Gaylord. So, I am biased because he’s completely changed my life and the lives of my wife, kids, mother and countless other people in my life that never understood anything about fitness and nutrition until they got on one of his programs. So, that much I have to admit. When you see someone take control of their life and lose 100 pounds like one of my friends did, it moves you in a way that is hard to describe.
Did Tony make a lot of money on P90X? You bet he did. But that’s not really why he designed it. P90X was designed as a follow up to Power 90 and was formulated in response to a lot of people that wanted something harder. When it came out in 2004 no one even knew about it. It was a flop for years. Within the last year some of the celebrities and NFL players like Ray Lewis and David Akers have given it a lot of publicity. So, there’s the background.
As for the nutrition plan, I won’t do it full justice here, but I’ll describe it briefly. It is a three phase plan. The opening phase incorporates a very heavy focus on lean protein. Phase two still has more protein than carbs, but the balance is closer. The final phase is about 50% carbs with about a 30% protein and 20% fat mix. Those are rough estimates and again this is a thumbnail sketch of a nutrition guide that is about 75 pages thick. The theory is to jump start the metabolism early in the plan, then later once your body’s metabolic fire is lit up, to blend out the balance. It has worked for me and a lot of other people that I know. The plan encourages whole foods and lean protein. Generally it is very easy to follow. And Tony didn’t tweak it. If he did all the foods would be vegetarian or even vegan. His diet is perfect, which is why he looks the way he does at 51. He’s also not a genetic anomoly. He was a skinny kid from Rhode Island that got beat up in high school. He moved to LA to pursue acting but fell in love with fitness. He’s really rather ordinary.
I know there is a lot of skepticism about fitness products that are sold like this one. There is also a lot of anger and confusion related to the seemingly endless stream of somewhat contradictatory information about fitness and nutrition. I can’t tell you how many people, including me, were wandering around jogging on a treadmill for 30 mins a day and not getting anywhere before they found this program. That’s why Beachbody did not simply make stuff up to sell a product. Instead, they hired people like Mark Sisson and Steve Edwards to help them formulate their nutritional plans and the supplements that they sell. The goal is to reverse the obesity trend in America. That’s a pretty lofty one when you think that about 66% of American’s are overweight.
So perhaps we all have a better understanding of who we are, what we do, and that maybe…just maybe…we can all learn more from each other when the dialogue is open and honest rather than hostile and/or defensive. Anyway, I have to run, but I will look into Body by Science and look forward to your posts on that topic.
Dave
It’s good to see that you’re replying with a calmer tone and more qualified statements than before – but with regard to your latest response, you should further qualify that statement with “P90X is not _optimally_ effective, efficient, or safe.”
As a counterargument, here are a few well-justified reasons for why P90X is effective, efficient, and safe.
1) Breadth and variety – rather than focusing on pure strength, P90X also emphasizes endurance, balance, and agility. These are important aspects of physical fitness that can’t be overlooked. These exercise benefits do not stem from muscular hypertrophy as you claim, and there is plenty of evidence to back this up. Vascularization, RBC count, and muscle memory are some examples of this.
This is why when people talk about their results, they not only show off their muscles and reduced body fat, but they also mention how they can _do_ so much more.
2) Motivation – P90X provides the impetus and structure for doing exercise that many people lack. For many people whose actual lifestyles have changed because of P90X, the motivation factor can’t be denied. TH is popular mainly because of his motivational skills and sense of humor, and less because of the shape he’s in.
3) Versatility – P90X lets people modify and swap the routines. For people who can’t do pullups, there are bands. For people with knee problems doing Plyometrics, there are modified low-impact moves. Breaks are encouraged for those who get fatigued. By allowing people to incorporate common sense into their routines, the routines become more safe.
Note that I’m not claiming that P90X is more effective, more efficient, or safer than HIT. It’s very possible – even probable – that HIT works better for some people. I cannot make claims regarding HIT without knowing more about it or trying it myself.
I appreciate that you recommend BBS, and I will consider reading it. Echoing the other respondents’ sentiments, however, we would equally appreciate it if you looked deeper into P90X, what it actually claims to achieve, and how it sets about achieving those claims.
This post is lol bad. You make these claims and don’t back them up. Kevin P threw a very solid counterargument at you and you did little to prove him wrong besides say things like…
“As for the exercise physiologist and elite athlete comment- both of these things show your lack of understanding for the field of exercise. This sounds unavoidably arrogant, but it is the truth none the less. 99% of “exercise physiologists” are as clueless as your typical bodybuilder when it comes to proper exercise and nutrition- and the same can be said of elite athletes.”
All you did was throw aggression opinions around like they are facts, and they make you sound ridiculous. You somehow know more about exercise and the human body than 99% of exercise physiologists and elite athletes? How is this even possible?
Furthermore, to say that the only purpose of exercising is strength gains is flat out wrong. So many things go hand in hand with exercising that there is not one main purpose. You exercise, you break your muscles down, you burn calories during this proccess and during recovery/rebuilding, your metabolism increases, your muscles use oxygen more efficiently, etc…so why is the main purpose strength gains again?
However, I agree that “chronic” exercise isn’t the most effective way to train or get in shape. I believe anaerobic exercise should be done every day for any amount of time under an hour, not in these huge lump times that people are doing aerobic for. Do people think our ancestors 5,000 years ago spent 6 hours a day training aerobically? No.
Working out 2 to 3 times a week is definitely sufficient to get results and to get in shape, but there is no way one would be more in shape or have better results than someone working out every day in short, explosive bursts.
Anthony,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. From the time I started my comments to the time I posted them you had many, many hits on this thread.
Why don’t you try the program and then comment?
Lee – I agree almost 100%. This next part is not directed at you, however I’d like to see the data from someone that says P90x is not safe. I feel that has been implied in this thread but I haven’t seen any data, just perceptions. How many folks have been injured doing the workout. If that rate is higher than any other similar activity then I’ll agree. But I don’t see any data. Sure anything can be unsafe if you do it wrong or in excess. Take drinking water for example. Doing it right works, doing it wrong and being stupid could result in death.
Dream, you should actually try P90X yourself before declaring that it doesn’t work. Doing Internet research about the product does not provide you with adequate information about the program to declare whether it works or not.
I’ve been doing P90X and variations (P90X+, Tony Horton One on One workouts) for 18 months and it definitely works. I’ve gone from 220 lbs to 175 lbs and I’ve totally transformed my body. I am not an anomaly. I don’t have a a genetic predisposition to being athletic. I’m in better shape at 47 than I was in most of my 20s and 30s.
The best thing about P90X and why I think it would help most people is that it shows you the meaning of working out with intensity. I’ve lifted weights for years but never got results like I got with P90X because I wasn’t exercising with enough intensity. This is something that is hard to teach yourself. Yes you could get that from a personal trainer which costs about as much per hour as the P90X program.
As for the nutrition program I never could follow it very well. Mark Sisson’s Primal Blueprint is much better. If you did P90X and followed the Primal Blueprint eating guidelines you would definitely get results.
P90X was developed more than six years ago and didn’t do very well at first. It was designed for gym rats who wanted to get better results and not have to go to the gym. It wasn’t developed with the general population in mind and certainly not for the overweight and out of shape. But as with any program it can and has been modified by thousands of people and they have gotten great results with it so to say it doesn’t work laughable when evidence abounds that it obviously does work.
This is the biggest load of bull I have ever heard. Excuse me Mr.Wikipedia King of using randomly updated and unverified sources but I am a physical education major and personal trainer and I can say that it does work and every single component of this program is true and accurate from what I have learned. I have multiple professors who do or have done it and look and feel great and I myself have completed it and it works. If you get hurt or you do not get legitimate results then it is human error, NOT THE WORKOUTS. There probably will be more injuries for this than other exercises because it is an at home program that many people will do alone and will not use proper form. HOWEVER, this program is also designed for people who are already in decent shape (you are to pass a provided fit test before starting) and not for people who have never exercised before. There are constant warnings and modified moves from tony so that you do not get hurt. But it is like any work out, if you do it the right way and you are in healthy condition then it will work wonders, if not then you run the risk of getting hurt and should maybe work up to it a bit. That is direct advice to you! Stop blogging about it and go for a run.
The relationship between things like force and repetitive movement and injuries and joint problems is pretty straight forward – it isn’t necessary to collect data to judge whether a particular movement or exercise program is more likely to cause an injury or physical problem.
An exercise program consisting of more rapid movements is more likely to result in traumatic injuries like pulls and strains, and a program consisting of a high volume of exercise is more likely to contribute to cumulative injury – microtrauma leading to joint or connective tissue problems over time.
In regards to a few other comments:
P90X is not efficient. Better improvements in strength, endurance, appearance, and general health and fitness could be accomplished with a much, much lower volume of exercise.
Stronger muscles make improved agility and balance possible, but they are specific skills. Balance exercises are not going to transfer to improvements in different activities, or an overall improvement in balance. Standing on one leg won’t improve your handstand balance, or vice versa, and neither will improve your balance in different activities. Strength will help, but practice needs to be specific.
Versatility is not unique to P90X. Any body who knows what they’re doing can modify an exercise program to suit an individual.
Anthony is correct that P90X is not optimally effective, efficient, or safe. From the videos I have seen, the exercises recommended are not performed in an optimal manner – in fact, the form tends to be pretty sloppy. It is definitely not optimally efficient – nobody requires six hours of exercise per week, and most people would get better results from much less. The inclusion of plyometrics alone disqualifies it as being optimally safe. Plyometrics is far more likely to cause an injury than a program of exercise emphasizing smooth, controlled movements.
Drew – (Sorry to dominate this forum Anthony)
I’m doing some research on BBS and HIT and read your review of BBS. I think I understand the general theory. I’m not sure I agree with it, but I think I get the basics.
So how does an endurance athlete train using HIT? Is that even possible?
From my perspective we may be simply talking about apples and oranges here. I agree that fat is primarily lost via proper nutrition, and not necessarily by doing hours of cardio. I also agree that strength training is important to maintain muscle while you lose fat stores. I can see how the proper combination of these exercises and proper nutrition could yield some good results.
I actually enjoy working out and I’ve never been injured doing P90X since 2004. In fact, my repaired ACL in my left knee caused me a lot of trouble between the surgery in 1994 and when I started working out using Power90 and P90X in 2003-04. So, the longer workouts don’t bother me. I enjoy the opportunity to recharge my batteries and turn off the big brain for a while, whether that is doing push ups, yoga or on the bike.
I’m interested in your thoughts on endurance sports and these concepts, which again I’m just digging into.
Thanks,
Dave
P90X Works, and works well.
For endurance athletes it’s a balancing game – HIT for general strength and conditioning and improved resistance to injury, and sport specific skill training and metabolic conditioning. The trick is covering all the bases without overtraining, which endurance athletes have a tendency to do.
Skill and metabolic conditioning are specific to the activity, while the benefits of strength training are of a more general nature. Either alone would improve performance, but not as much as both together, but when you’re doing both you have to be very careful not to exceed the frequency or volume the individual is able to tolerate.
Drew,
You raise a valid point, especially concerning safety and efficiency. P90X users run the risk of injury, and they are required to commit 6hrs per week. Thus, it falls in the framework of more “conventional” exercise programs that contain a combination of resistance training and cardio. Every exercise program I’ve heard of contains a time commitment and injury risk, until I heard of BBS.
Regarding BBS achieving better results than P90X or a similar program, in literally 3% of the time, with no risk for injury .. sounds a little bit overblown to me. You’re more of an expert, but I do have the following questions concerning BBS.
1) BBS makes the intuitively correct claim that muscles are not aware of the type of exercise being performed. It then follows with the claim that all aerobic exercise (which suffer from repetitive movement and/or impact) can be replaced with safe, efficient high-intensity strength training, as long as it hits the same muscle groups. My question is – how does HIT train the heart and diaphragm muscles to the same extent as aerobic exercise? It is clear that sustained aerobic activity increases lung capacity and heart strength (as is evidenced by lower resting bpm in athletes). How does 10 minutes a week of strength training accomplish the same? You can’t use strength training to make your heart beat ten times harder.
2) You mention that training in motor skills has to be specific — how specific does it have to be? I think it’s important not to overstate this claim – otherwise you’d be going against the training regimens of most sports coaches. Most of a football training regimen consists of things other than playing football. Regarding muscle memory, it’s hard to make the claim that a balance exercise doesn’t transfer to snowboarding, or that a tennis serve doesn’t help improve a volleyball serve. Granted, to get really good, you do need to fine-tune, but it’s hard to believe that general skills like balance and hand-eye coordination aren’t transferable.
3) Have you read the articles cited by BBS, as well as articles that reference the cited works?
Without sounding too harsh, your and Anthony’s endorsements of BBS border on being dogmatic (and unscientific). You’re right that BBS contains journal citations, and sources are important. However, I’m skeptical of the practice of using citations to validate a popularly marketed book as “science”, especially since people seem to be taking advantage of the “science” to set BBS apart from all other fitness programs.
Few people are going to look at the citations, other than flip through them and notice that there are “lots”. Practically no one is going to read the cited papers, even fewer will check which articles have referenced the cited papers, and what work has since been done to support or refute the cited work, etc .. have you?
The volume of published articles is so great that one can find citations to support any claim; any clever author with an agenda can find citations. As for the reader, he/she cannot possibly check the objectivity of the author’s claims without the specialized knowledge of an exercise scientist, and without spending significant effort. The reader’s justified defense is skepticism – skepticism is the cornerstone of science.
I’m now even more suspicious because BBS seems to advance several very bold, controversial points — and based on your book reviews, it doesn’t give due credence to researchers whose results indicate the contrary. There must be at least one article published that promotes cardio for every article that discredits cardio, and does BBS cite those? Bias is the surest thing that discredits any book that claims to be an objective review of the scientific literature.
My conclusion to this long-winded post is that people need to be careful of popular books marketed as “science”. They’re just as likely to be biased as nonscientific books, with a more dangerous potential to mislead.
Lee,
I’m going to make this quick since I have clients early tomorrow, but will answer in more detail later.
Most of the stuff in BBS is not new. The basic principles have been known since the early ’70s. In 1975 Nautilus conducted research at West Point Military Academy showing better cardiovascular improvements in six weeks of high intensity strength training than most experts at the time believed could be produce in as many months of traditional endurance training. The people testing cardiovascular performance were from the Coopers Aerobics Institute in Dallas, and when they brought the data back to Cooper he refused to believe it.
Consider recent research from McMaster University showing sprint interval training consisting of 4 to 6 60 second all out efforts with 4 min of rest in between produced equivalent cardiovascular improvement to 30 min of continuous work at about 70% of predicted HR max – you do not need a lot of exercise to produce significant cardiovascular improvements, nor does it need to be continuous, it just has to be demanding enough – the same kind of cardiovascular demand can be placed on the body during strength training when performing exercises involving large muscles or muscle groups at a high level of effort.
The difference between BBS, which is really just a specific application of HIT principles, and most exercise programs, is that most exercise programs only very loosely follow scientific principles, and for the most part are based on tradition or fad and cater more to people’s expectations and misconceptions than their actual physical needs.
Drew,
Thanks for your patience in replying.
The McMaster study sounds familiar to me, I might have read it on the news someplace. The prospect of 4-6 minutes of exercise replacing 30 minutes sounds promising, but the exercisers must be redefining the word “intensity”.
These studies sound interesting for sure, and the only way I’ll relieve my skepticism is if I try it myself. At some time in the future I think I’ll give this my best effort, but for now I’m gonna concentrate my efforts on finishing P90X
Anthony,
Thanks for your earlier reply.
I’ve got a copy of the book now and have started working my way through it. I can agree, that the cardio-vascular system does not know the difference between strength training and what we refer to as “cardio”. I wear a heart monitoring while performing P90X and the super-intense plyometrics workout has me burning 850 calories in 55 minutes. Yet, I also burn almost 550 calories in the same time doing strength training, more if I up the intensity.
I also found some review of the book that challenge some of the number as arbitrary, why rest 7 days? why not 4? Why exercise for 9 minutes? Why not 6 and a half? Where do these numbers come from?
I’ve added your blog to my daily reads.
Thanks,
Tom
@ Tom
Your answers lie within Body by Science, and I have also touched on them briefly before here on TDL (the rest period for example is based on the general population- they had to pick a recovery duration that fit a broad scale).
My workouts usually last anywhere from 7-20 minutes- the 12 minute is arbitrary. My recovery intervals range from 4-12 days as well.
I promise, it will make more sense as you read, and the citations are plentiful (and, in most cases, not very hard to find and read yourself).
thanks, glad to hear you’ll be back, look forward to future discussions
@ all
I am going to write a new post on P90x today with my most up to date thoughts. Too much has been repeated in the discussion here, and many people will never read this far down in the comments, which is very unfortunate (regardless of which side of the arguments you are on, people need to read this stuff!).
So, check the main blog soon enough (late today, or early tomorrow morning).
thanks for the interest and discussion- good, bad, indifferent, critical and supportive, I appreciate all of it!
-Anthony
Anthony, you are absolutely right. Athletes and physiologists don’t know what they are doing and should all quit, despite the fact that everything we do is backed by lots of actual data.
I will pass on a note to the folks at USA swimming and USA cycling and have them check with you for their training program. Bob Bowman obviously doesn’t know what he is doing having Michael Phelps in the pool all day, and Lance Armstrong should spend less time on the bike. They just haven’t been told their programs don’t work.
Also, I will throw out all of my own personal data (V02Max, blood lactate, aerobic power, Wingate anaerobic capacity, etc) that I’ve generated over the years. Obviously these tests are meaningless.
I don’t have a problem with you or anyone else taking a position that p90x may not be the best program for some people (or even most people). My issue is that you have gone way beyond that and made rather sweeping claims about a lot of things that you are completely unqualified to comment on and, more important, that you have no data on. That, in my book, is the definition of arrogance. You prove this if you are willing to make the statement that athletes and the people who train them don’t know what they are doing. Meanwhile, you believe that everyone else is wrong simply because you read a book and it worked for YOU.
Sports at the highest level are a fairly brutal darwinian endeavor, and these days extremely scientific data driven. If there was a way to be successful with minimal effort and body wear and tear, I think that the secret would have come out by now. I don’t know Patrick Driver, but
In fairness to you though, I already started skimming through the book, and some valid points stick out immediately. First, I need some time to work through prior research. I will grant you, however, that Dr. McGuff’s take on genetic predisposition is something that I perhaps hadn’t given enough consideration. Call it a “self selecting sample bias”, having trained mostly with other high level athletes since I was 13 or 14 years old. Part of the genetic predisposition in this population, along with sport specific body types, is undoubtedly the ability for rapid muscular recovery.
I will say that the predisposition factor also needs to be applied to the BBS program. I’m sure it works great for some, but others will not respond to this program the same way.
As for the posts from Drew, I appreciate his experience in the field, but I also recognize that he is selling his approach to the program, and is not necessarily objective on this. Again, I do not dispute that he has personally had success and had a lot of clients that have made progress, but this is a (statistically) biased viewpoint. He believes it works because it works for him, and the clients that keep coming back are the ones who progress while those for whom the program doesn’t work move on to something else. I’m not trying to imply that there is any dishonesty. He believes in what he is selling, which is not a bad thing, but not completely objective either and it should be recognized.
Once I finish reading the book I’ll have to figure out how to incorporate this for myself as a test. It will have to be somewhere off season when I put the bike away for a month, usually at the beginning of ski season.
I think what comes out of all this discussion is the conclusion that different people with different goals have to put in some effort to find the regimen that gets them (within their genetic capabilities) to their goals.
And Anthony, as for my “pickup artist” comment in my earlier post, I can’t help that this is exactly how you present yourself in your “about me” bio. If you take offense to being labeled this way, I’m sorry, but revise your bio.
Hopefully I am ending this post a bit less testy than I began it.
Thanks for the comment. I am nearly finished with the post, just waiting for my editor to work on it a bit. It should answer all of your comments/concerns (as will BBS).
I will be revising my bio soon enough due to the knee jerk reactions it has been producing- although I am not ashamed to have taken action in a specific area of my life that I did not feel was successful enough. It made sense on a fundamental level to work on “it”, and I came out all the better from it, despite the hicups and speed bumps along the way.
thanks, look forward to your thoughts on my newest post
-Anthony
Dream,
Not exactly sure who you are but I can tell you for a fact that P90X has gotten me into the best shape of my life. I’m a engineer at NASA here in Florida and I really have no clue where you have DREAMED up your information. The facts are that this program works. It has help thousands if not 10s of thousand of regular people achieve results they never thought possible. I’ve personally met hundreds of people who has had dramatic results and have helped many others with their fitness goal. I know this is true because I lived it myself loosing 40+ pounds and dropping down to 8% BF. Was it easy Hell no, did it take a huge commitment to make sure that I ate the right foods, got plenty of extra sleep and did what ever recovery I needed, ice therapy, massages, etc. Now you might say that I must be a genetic freak too, but I can tell you that for the 5 years prior to my fitness experience with P90X I tried many other exercise programs. Body for Life was one. I bought and used a Bow Flex doing their program. None of them gave me anything like the result I got from P90X. Another fact that most of your readers may not believe is that every single one of the people in the P90X infomercial are unpaid customers. I’m one of those people and I gave my testimonial because I know just how much loosing that 40 pounds has changed my life. Now at 46 years old I have the same waist size I did in High School. I can do sets of 15-20 pull ups and I can run until I wear my three little kids out of breath. Getting others to see that and believe it can happen to them is an amazing process and one I enjoy doing. Beachbody is a really company with a mission. P90X is just one of the great products that has been created to realize that vision. The facts are that most of America is morbidly obese. I don’t want my kids growing up in a world were the health care system is bogged down with illness brought on by stuffing our faces with junk and sitting on the coach. It really burns my butt to read something thrown up on some board when the facts are so completely different. One more point. Tony Horton is hardly a flashy Hollywood Starlet. He is a real, down to earth person who really does care about changing peoples lives. Practically all of the Trainers who have produced programs for Beachbody are the same. Down to earth, real people who care. They are accessible to a huge population of people who care to become affiliated with Beachbody. Heck on any given Sunday morning you can cruise down to the Beach in Santa Monica CA and find Tony down there working out with his buddies and anybody else who walks up and has the guts to say, can I join you. It certainly might be true that Tony appears to be a genetic freak, but that fact is that he is simply at the top of his game and pushing it further and further everyday he walks on this earth. I certainly hope anyone who has read your sorry assessment of P90X choose to do their own research because if they follow your advise, well all I can say is I wish the best too them.
Dream,
I want to get my testimony. I just finished the P90X prgm and EVERYONE I know comments on how great of shape I’m in, espeically those who haven’t seen me a while. My 27 yr son say he’s convinced on the pgm seeing my “8 pack” as he says.
I felt I was in pretty good shape before, I surf, practice Muai Thai kick boxing, Kayak racing, tried Yoga, gyms and other workouts and this has given the best results in less time. I now catch more waves, just climbed Mt Baker with a bunch of 20-30 yr olds, I’m 57, charged the whole way. My Instuctors all comment on the changes in strenght, flexiblility & looks. I’ve dropped 25lbs and 7% BF, in 90 days.
It’s a good place to start, then add or substract what you want. Add a bench weights instead of body weight. I’ve done it with a few dumb bells and a pull up bar. Not much expense considering the equipment I see in peoples homes. There are warm ups and cool downs which is often skipped. It helped me for structure and consistency. For those who are into fitness and have a routine have at it. This is great for most people I know.
The nutition guides have helped me understand and improve my eating habits. The support I get for the community is very encouraging, and helpful. Anything I need I can find support for, great bunch of people.
I’m not fitness expert and one to support stuff that I don’t believe in. For you to say it doesn’t work and to discourage someone from trying like one of you earlier respondants, I think is a shame. For myself I’m a believer and have made many more.
Anyway just a few comments to encourage people to try it themselves. I’m reget you stance on the program.
dmowmow
I’ve done p90x it works!! I know several people who have done it and none of them are paid actors or have apeared on any commercials for p90x. All I know is Tony could kick Baye and dreams butts any day of the week!!
Wow…this last comment made me laugh a bit.
@All
Please read the new post as I will not be responding in this thread any longer.
http://www.thedreamlounge.net/2009/08/12/strength-training-superior-to-p90x-cardio-crossfit-functional-group-exercise-fitness-classes/
Thank you
-Dream