The Ultimate Post on and Holy Trinity of: Proper Footwear (Vibram Five Fingers included)

Posted on 20. Aug, 2009 by Dream in Exercise, Lifestyle Design, Miscellaneous

It’s here…the post you’ve been waiting for on my funky- yet functional- “frog” shoes. Expected read time- 12 minutes.

Outer Purpose

To educate others on the best footwear available, in the world.

Deeper Purpose

I believe it to be vitally important for long and short term health (as well as athletic performance) to wear traditional shoes as infrequently as possible.

Personal Experience

For over one year, I’ve worn traditional (cast like) shoes no more than a handful of times, including special occasions such as weddings.

I have however worn a revolutionary (or not so revolutionary, depending on how you look at it) new “shoe” that catches the attention of nearly anyone I meet- and even those I don’t who simply catch a glimpse.

I have performed a collage of activities barefoot, or in the shoes we will discuss today- including half marathons (which, I do not recommend for the purpose of proper exercise).

The Underlying Problem with Conventional Footwear

Conventional wisdom is most often, wrong. The field is irrelevant- the principle applies to literally any area of interest one can imagine.

Footwear is no exception.

Perhaps the most detrimental advice ever conceived in the field is that of an ever increasing amount of “heel support” to alleviate or prevent problems- of which, it does neither.

I believe this- along with a myriad of other factors- has contributed strongly to an infinite number of ankle, knee, hip, and lower back injuries/issues- in particular over the past few decades, as this old wives tale has continued to spread.

Why not heel support?

Simply put, we evolved over the course of 2.5 million years- without “shoes”. Our feet were subject to some of the harshest conditions imaginable- far more dangerous than your typical slab of urban pavement (glass included).

Whatever little we were able to strap on to our feet, did not include any substantial amount of “heel support”.

It protected our feet from the elements at best, and did little in the way of immobilizing our feet, toes, and ankles (in comparison to your typical shoe found in stores today).

What about all the advanced research biotechnological mumbo jumbo done by large corporations over the past few decades? Certainly these expensive shoes must have some scientific foundation.

In fact, they most often do not.

Heel support” (and whatever other terms marketing divisions throw your way) basically started as a hoax alongside the running movement started by Jim Fixx in the 70’s.

The concept of substantial heel support has had a snowball effect over the past few decades, not unlike the aerobics movement. Thankfully, it is finally losing momentum (not surprisingly, right alongside aerobics).

So I don’t need “heel support” to walk or run?

Simply put, no.

With walking, it’s less of an issue. There are still some issues hardcore bare footers would argue, but, they are minor in comparison to running with significant amounts of heel support.

From my understanding, the primary issue in regards to walking lies in improper posture (namely, the lower back) that results from walking with elevated heels- LUGZ and high heels anyone?

Which, for the record I am not a fan of for the purpose of exercise. Recreation and specific skill training? Of course. Physical activity with the specific purpose of positive physiological adaptations?

Unnecessary at this point in time.

Any compound leg movement under a heavy resistance can (and will) stimulate all the health and skeletal muscle benefits (and more) that running any distance, intensity, or combination there of, can.

The risk of immediate injury and long term wear and tear issues are simply to much to classify running of any sort as proper exercise.

That said, running- for the purpose of specific skill training, recreation, competition, and so on- with “heel support” promotes the mis-use of the human body.

This video visually demonstrates what I’m about to say (feel free to click it, I have a new application installed that plays it right here on TDL).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9itkEkcQ8WM

Simply put, it is borderline impossible to heel strike without shoes.

Your body, would literally fall apart without a modern cushion. If you are curious to see for yourself, try sprinting barefoot (heel striking) about 150 feet on a nearby sidewalk or side street.

If you manage not to hurt yourself, you will see very quickly the immense shock (and pain) it brings to your body.

Now consider the fact that “heel support” was non existent for 2.5 million years, and we were running relatively frequently, striking on our fore or mid foot- never the heel.

Essentially, we have not evolved to land on our heels, once we break into a stride.

Why then, did we suddenly decide a few decades ago, that we needed lots of heel support? And furthermore, why has this been evermore perpetuated by mainstream medicinal wisdom?

Not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but the answer is profit.

Companies that sell shoes…want to sell an ever increasing amount of shoes.

The logic isn’t hard to follow, and improving upon “heel support” with ever advancing technology is an easy way to sell shoes to runners looking for an “edge”- despite this folklore that has become the standard, being diametrically opposed to our bodies design and natural movement.

Or in other words, shoe companies hopped on the wrong band wagon long ago and have been stubborn to move off of it.

Well, until recently. Nike not long ago created a line of shoes called the Nike Free- a shoe that attempts to emulate being barefoot…

But perhaps more relevant to today’s discussion, the increasingly popular shoe that does the ultimate job at emulating barefoot walking and running- Vibram Five Fingers.

All the benefits of being barefoot, without the downside of your skin being exposed to the elements (ranging from broken glass, to restroom…matter).

I’m frequently asked “what they are”- and my quick response is usually toe socks with a thin rubber sole. Or perhaps more accurately for our discussion, extremely durable toe socks with a thin rubber sole and a bit of toe protection.

Vibram Five Fingers allow for complete range of motion with your feet and toes- which, conventional footwear does not.

Typical shoes essentially act as a mild cast- weakening your feet below “baseline”.

Meaning if you grew up without wearing shoes- barring injury- every connective tissue and muscle in your feet would be significantly stronger than it currently is- for the most part, regardless of activity level (some activities will however promote the strengthening of these mentioned tissues, if the activity is performed barefoot).

They also enhance athletic performance. By using more of your feet (rather than running around on what is essentially a flat plank) you gain added stability, coordination, balance, and awareness of the ground you are running on.

Personally, this helps me in my weekly session of dodge ball.

I may not be willing to jump as high as those that come crashing down on their cushioned heels (that transfer as much or more shock than they absorb), but I am able to perform footwork and dodges that I was never able to growing up.

Vibram Q and A

How much?

Anywhere from about 70-100 dollars. Past that you are just getting ripped off. You can find them all over the internet, including Amazonof course.

What about the different models?

I previously had the black KSO- keep stuff out- model.

They were a great, and held up incredibly well considering the torture I put them through. However, they do not do such a great job “keeping stuff out” at the beach- which was the primary reason I went with that model over the similar sprints.

They are also somewhat difficult to put on due to the mesh netting intended to keep stuff out.

Hence, I went with blue cameo sprints this time around- very similar to KSO’s, but without the mesh netting. Much easier to slip on, are a bit better fit (one size bigger, and have adjustable back straps my KSOs did not), and breathe much better in sunny Orlando Florida.

The one downside Tim Ferriss talked about in his Vibram post is that the primary strap on the sprints can dig into the top of your foot. My room mate has had this same issue, but I have not. In fact I have had nothing but positive experiences with my sprints yet. I am not sure why this problem does not affect me, but, it doesn’t =).

There are other models as well that I have not had experience with- including the classic (no strap, used primarily for walking) and flows (insulated for cold weather). Both of which are worth checking out if you A. live in cold weather or B. will not be doing any sort of high speed recreational or competitive activity in them.

Sizing issues?

I wear about a 11.5 size shoe US- and wear size 43 Vibrams. You can try measuring your feet as suggested by Vibram, however I would strongly encourage you to locate a local retailer and have your foot accurately measured before buying some online at a place like Amazon.

And perhaps even then considering getting “one size bigger” just in case. The last thing you want is a Vibram that is too small- trust me.

What about XYZ issue with my feet? And what about my doctor’s concerns?

While I am not a medical doctor and take no responsibility in any injury that results from not wearing conventional “shoes”, chances are wearing Vibrams more frequently than conventional shoes will significantly improve or entirely alleviate any problem you have with your feet.

If there is one take a way from this post, it’s that the last thing you want to do with your feet is “protect them” with more cushioning- which is probably what your doctor will tell you the second you walk into his office with any sort of related problem.

He literally, does not understand the subject and is probably reciting what he read in a textbook 10 years earlier. There may be rare cases in which wearing typical shoes may be a temporary help (a micro fracture comes to mind), but keep in mind that our entire race did not have access to shoes for over 2 million years. You would have never had access to shoes in the past, and probably shouldn’t now for the sake of your health.

Any issues with transitioning?

Yes, do not over do it in the beginning- even walking. There is a high chance your feet are underdeveloped from a lifetime of being encased in mild casts and you will experience at least some degree of transitional pain while your feet adapt.

If possible, walk on grass wearing them for the first few weeks as often as possible, and try to avoid concrete or marble floors. Asphalt surprisingly is a little more forgiving with your transition, but only slightly so.

Do they get smelly?

Despite excellent materials that are antimicrobial, yes, as much as any other shoe. Wash then in cold water (and air dry) frequently and you should be OK. Also, wash them before they start to stink and you’ll be leaps and bounds ahead of the crowd =).

Do chicks dig them?

Yes, they do. In fact if there is one item that has attracted more attention in and of itself over the past year, it is bar none Vibram FiveFinger shoes.

It is an easy conversation topic that girls of all ages will jump on in a heart beat- if not ask to play with your feet right on the spot (you would be shocked to hear how frequently this happens, and yes I think it’s gross considering all the places I walk in them).

Any restrictions, such as wearing them in a gym?

A friend called me today and complained about this very issue after he was dismissed from his school gym for wearing black KSOs.

Let it be known- to the furthest extent of my knowledge- the real reason you must wear shoes in a gym and not sandals or the like is NOT to “protect your toes”. This is complete horse shit. If anyone ever says this is the reason you must wear typical footwear in a gym they are clueless on the issue.

The real reason you must wear “shoes” in a gym has nothing to do with your toes- but everything to do with blood and other biological concerns from a damaged foot- of which the Vibrams protect you and your peers perfectly.

If a gym employee does hassle you about them, your best bet is to simply wear shoes and then take them off when performing leg exercises such as a leg press, squat, and so on (more in a minute).

If you want to be a jerk about it, tell them you will volunteer to drop a ten pound dumbbell on your foot- after they do so first- to demonstrate the protective capability of Vibrams.

Of course, neither your Vibram shoe or the employees shoe will protect you from a dropped weight- in fact even a 5 pound weight could shatter your foot or break a toe if it hit in the right spot.

Hence, I find it utterly ridiculous when I hear this type of discussion.

The Ultimate Sock

I originally found out about this sock from Tynan during his recent gear post.

They are, in my humble opinion, the best sock on the planet. They are also made out of the ultimate fabric- 100% merino wool. Merino wool acts like “Under Armor” in the sense that it helps keep you cool when it’s warm, and warm when it’s cold.

It also, does not smell, ever. The fabric itself, undamaged, literally can not smell- unlike stinky cotton.

Merino wool also has the ability to keep your feet warm when wet- an attribute cotton lacks. In fact wet cotton will actually cause your feet to become colder.

Now, I do live in Florida, so it’s not that cold- but when winter comes, it can dip into the 30’s.

My Vibram sprints, are ill suited for 30 degree weather- I found this out with my KSO’s last winter. Hence, I picked these up on Amazon.

I got a slightly larger size than the white ones you see above (check the first picture to see what I’m talking about). My thinking is that when I am wearing these, A. I am not interested in making a fashion statement, and B. it’s gonna be friken cold! =).

I have not had the chance to wear them extensively yet, however they do fit perfectly with my Vibram sprints. Tim Ferriss claimed slight pain from wearing the socks with the Vibrams, however I have felt no such pain. My guess is that his Virbams are one size too small- a common mistake.

As for being itchy- merino wool has no such quality. I have worn a 100% merino wool shirt multiple days per week for over 1 year now and have nothing but positive things to say about it. Merino wool simply does not itch, any way shape or form.

The Ultimate Sandal

Kind of hard to see in my original picture, but I recently purchased a pair of Island Surf Double Stack Rainbow Hemp Sandals on Amazon.

It’s been a few weeks…and so far they have been incredible. It took about 2 days for them to “adapt” to my feet, and ever since…it’s hard to take them off =).

Why are they the best?

A. The sandals are guaranteed for the life of the sole (meaning if the straps break- which is common with flip flops- they replace the pair).

B. Hemp is an odor resistant, very durable, and quick drying material.

These last 3 factors alone make it worth your while to invest in a pair. Although honestly, once you wear them for a few days, you’ll never want to go back to cheap flip flops from your local Wal-Mart.

Now, what about heel support? As mentioned, I got the double stack over the single.

As stated previously, the primary concern with heel support is any type of athletic activity- and the subsequent heel striking that is promoted.

While walking, it’s not a big deal.

In fact I would wear these sandals any day over my vibrams if I were to walk around a very hard surface for an extended period of time (say, at a theme park).

While elevating your heel (mildly in this case) isn’t the best idea in the world, it is certainly not comfortable to walk around on your bare heels (or close to it) for a prolonged period of time on a rock hard and unnaturally flat surface. It too, voids our evolutionary set habits.

These sandals provide a happy medium- allowing your toes to spread out and not be confined in a mild cast (another detriment of conventional footwear)- while providing just enough cushion to keep your feet from aching after walking around on man made concrete for 4 or more hours.

A final note on lifting barefoot

Thus far, few people have spoken about the benefits of lifting barefoot or in Vibrams. Tim Ferriss made a brief mention of it here, and Drew Baye has also commented on it here.

Seeing as how a major topic of my blog is exercise, I feel compelled to speak at least a bit more about it.

As you can see here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRv8d9SkURY

I am always lifting in my Vibrams, or barefoot. While it’s not easy to see with the black on black, my toes spread out significantly on the moments of the highest intensity (this is very noticeable when I am 100% barefoot as you see my entire lower leg flex, which you can see a slight example of here at about 7:20).

I believe this is critical for performing any compound leg movement in terms of developing everything.

I also believe it also plays a role in calf raises where the toes again (should) come into play strongly. Click play to view a short clip of what I’m talking about (clicking high quality may help as well).

I believe this is exactly how this movement is supposed to work- which, it does not with a marshmallow plank underneath your foot constricting your toes, much like a cast would.

And as Drew Baye mentioned in the linked post, stability is a benefit of squatting barefoot or in Vibrams.

I talked to him on the side and he brought up another interesting point of cushion underneath the heels during a squat.

Think of it this way, do you really want to give your feet the ability to roll a full inch in typical sneakers during a barbell squat (with hundreds of pounds on your back)?

Count me out.

And there you have it. The official thoughts on my “frog shoes”, accompanying elite socks, and the best flip flops in the world- the “holy trinity” of proper footwear.

I took a fairly aggressive stance on certain points in the post, and I hope I only encouraged you guys to reach out and try the shoes yourself. Feel free to chime in on the subject at hand, or, my writing as I’m always looking to improve it.

thanks

-Anthony


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Comment Policy

All opinions and comments are welcome- encouraged actually- however, please keep it cool (stay objective), and use a real e-mail address (it get's marked as spam by Akismet if it's fake). Also, comments are moderated- unless you have been approved of a comment before- then, you're free to go! =)

12 Responses to “The Ultimate Post on and Holy Trinity of: Proper Footwear (Vibram Five Fingers included)”

  1. Dan says:

    Good information and I’ll be picking up a pair of those socks soon for winter!

    Hemp is a cool material with a lot of history. Some of our founding fathers grew a lot of it and *probably* smoked it too for it’s psychedelic effects. It was also named the first billion dollar crop!

    I don’t wear shoes anymore after I purchased my Vibrams, other than my swim fins for bodyboarding which sort of restrict my feet. I have the same problem as Tim with the strap digging in to my feet and it leaves a noticeable mark when I take them off, it doesn’t hurt at all but it doesn’t look pretty.

    I haven’t had a problem with my gym thankfully, but I’m sure I’ll encounter it one day. Maybe I can convince them drop a five pound weight on their feet while wearing their shoes that supposedly protect them to prove my point? =P

    The only obstacle I have regarding proper footwear is going to be trying to convince the school I’ll work for once I graduate to let me wear them to work, I haven’t had a problem so far while volunteering at my local school though =)

  2. Ben says:

    Great post Anthony. I just found your blog from a comment on Tim Ferriss’s post about Saturated fat and I’m already subscribed.

    Btw, if you wanna improve your writing (some constructive criticism for ya) read On Writing Well by William Zinsser and memorize The Elements of Style by William Strunk Jr. and EB White. Those two books helped me most of all.

  3. Dream says:

    Thanks man, I’ll check them out (always looking to become a better writer).

    -Anthony

  4. Tuck says:

    You say: “The risk of immediate injury and long term wear and tear issues are simply to much to classify running of any sort as proper exercise.”

    People have been running for exercise for a very long time… millions of years, most likely. The Olympics, for example, started as a foot race ~2,000 years ago.

    Moreover, there’s no evidence of “long term wear and tear”, runners age better than any other group of people:

    “Regular running slows the effects of aging, according to a new study from the Stanford University School of Medicine that has tracked 500 older runners for more than 20 years. Elderly runners have fewer disabilities, a longer span of active life and are half as likely as aging nonrunners to die early deaths, the research found.”

    http://med.stanford.edu/news_releases/2008/august/running.html

    Plus, running in Vibrams is a lot of fun!

    Other than that, great post.

  5. Dream says:

    Hey Tuck

    Thanks for the comment. I tend to agree- I enjoyed running barefoot on grass or in Virbams much more so than shod running. And hey, racing an old friend is always fun.

    But “exercise”, as a means to stimulate positive physiological adaptations, does not have to be fun- contrary to popular belief. Many people buy into this notion- with little to no positive benefits, and plenty of negative downsides to such a belief.

    To the contrary, there are as many (or more) studies showing that those who run frequently for the purpose of exercise suffer a host of bone/joint related problems. The studies that show runners being “healthy” after decades of such a habit (trauma related injuries aside, which proper exercise should never produce) suffer what’s called “suvivorship bias”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

    Essentially, those who suffer injuries drop out of the habit and you have nothing left but those who are genetically gifted enough to avoid such an end. It’s a gamble basically.

    I understand some people have a passion for running, and I don’t discourage it for the purpose of recreation or specific skill training (ie practicing sprints for a sport), but I do not support it as a means of proper exercise- no matter how large or small the exercise “effect” is.

    There is also a post here that discusses running further from a fellow blogger (the comments are especially good)

    http://baye.com/something-is-not-always-better-than-nothing/

    Again, thanks for commenting, look forward to having you on the blog!

    -Anthony

  6. Dan says:

    Tuck, the authors of Body by Science actually discuss that same study you link to and present its flaws. Check it out – http://www.bodybyscience.net/home.html/?p=141

  7. Dream says:

    Nice, awesome find Dan.

  8. Tuck says:

    Anthony, I’d be interested to see the studies you mention that show running is bad for you. I read Chris McDougall’s ‘Born to Run’ this summer, and found his claims to be incredible: too good to be true.

    Since then, I’ve done a lot of reading to confirm/deny what he claims, and all I’ve found is confirmation.

    To your point on running being harmful, here are two studies that show the opposite:

    http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/308/6923/231

    “Athletes from all types of competitive sports are at slightly increased risk of requiring hospital care because of osteoarthritis of the hip, knee, or ankle. Mixed sports and power sports lead to increased admissions for premature osteoarthritis, but in endurance athletes the admissions are at an older age.”

    Endurance is defined as long distance running and cross country skiing in this study. (It’s from Finland.) So runners have a lower incidence of arthritis than weight lifters.

    Here’s another:

    http://www.ajpm-online.net/article/S0749-3797(08)00353-X/abstract

    “Long-distance running among healthy older individuals was not associated with accelerated radiographic OA [osteoarthritis]. These data raise the possibility that severe OA may not be more common among runners.”

    And, to sum it up:

    “It’s exciting to find a long-term study that supports the connection between running and good joint health, but I wonder how many other docs and medical organizations are ready to take up the cause. To check up, I call Patience White, M.D., the chief public health officer of the Arthritis Foundation. I tell her about the Fifty Plus runners, and ask if she’s surprised by the results. “That study makes complete sense to me,” Dr. White says. “People with pain in their joints imagine that runners must have even more pain, but we have lots of good data to show that running doesn’t cause arthritis.”

    “She goes on to say that obesity is a major culprit in the onset of arthritis, and that runners do themselves a lot of good simply by keeping the pounds off. Also, ‘Runners keep their muscles strong and well-balanced, which helps the joints.’”

    http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-241-285–9247-0,00.html

    So, if you have any links to article that disproves it, I’d be really interested in seeing them.

    On the survivorship bias point, a couple of points. The study I linked to above doesn’t answer the question: Running is good for everyone. This study would be susceptible to survivorship bias on that question, agreed. Even the question that the study does claim to answer, “Regular running slows the effects of aging” is susceptible to survivorship bias, as the running subjects maybe better specimens than the non-runners. But if you’re going to argue that running is bad for you, you need to address why a group of runners is in better health, and has better joint health, than a group of non-runners since your premise would suggest the opposite should be the case. Since doing a fully double-blind study is impossible on a topic like this, this study may not be perfect, but it may also be the best information that it is possible to get.

    Further to the survivorship issue, is the question that prompted McDougall to write his book: if running is good for you, why do so many people get injured trying to run? The answer appears to be, for a lot of people, shoes with heels higher than the toes, and that’s where the Vibrams come in, although there are other possibilities. (I think the Vibrams are the best choice, btw.) And yes, there’s a fair bit of scientific evidence to support that premise too.

    http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0103/mw.htm , for starters…

    My experience has been that I’ve been trying to be a runner for 10+ years, but the aches, pains, and shin splints have kept me from running regularly more than once a week, and often a lot less than that. I got Vibrams two years ago and ran a bit, and did a long barefoot beach run. Those felt great, and would encourage me to run more, until my sneakers discouraged me again. Since running in Vibrams and super-minimal sneakers exclusively, the aches and pains have gone away. My knee which has bothered me for 20 years (meniscus and cartilage damage, neither of which will ever heal) has felt better than ever, and I can’t wait to get out on the next run. Weight falls off if you run regularly.

    So if running really is bad for you, I’d like to know, I’m doing a lot of it now. If you’re basing your argument solely on the fact that runners in running sneakers have lots of injuries, then I’ll agree with you, but the reason for the injuries doesn’t seem to be running, it’s the sneakers.

  9. Doc Holliday says:

    I also have a pair of Five Fingers, All black KSO. I hardly wear anything else these days. Except when I ride my bicycle I wear a pair of Van’s slip on (http://www.zappos.com/vans-classic-slip-on-satin-black) which are comfortable and don’t make my feet feel trapped.

    The first week or two of wearing Five Fingers was painful for me, every muscle in my lower leg and foot was sore. In The Matrix Neo asks Morpheus “Why do my eyes hurt?” Morpheus replies “Because you’ve never used them before.”

    Why did my feet and legs hurt? Same reason, because I’d never actually used them before. After the first week or two the muscles stop being sore and you develop a new appreciation/addiction for walking in the grass, sand, mud, etc. You feel closer and more in touch with the ground below your feet.

    My only complaint is that they will start to smell quickly if you don’t wash them. I just wear them into the shower every other day and it keeps them from getting funky.

  10. Brian Gates says:

    As a former competitive runner, I have fairly well-deloped opinions on this issue. I strongly agree with that the unshod condition is far superior to the use of conventional footwear as far as biomechanics are concerned, and strongly agree with the philosophy of minimalist footwear, i.e. footwear which approximates the barefoot condition. I sincerely hope to see the tradition of protetive running shoes and podiatric “correction” die a well-deserved death in the coming years. However, I also believe that the question of footwear is primarily relevant to athletic participation and vocations that require constant standing and walking. There is not much harm in wearing Tims or Nikes as part of your street garb. I would wear the Vibram shoes for exercise, but would not feel compelled to wear them to them casually. I just doesn’t matter that much outside the context of physical activity.

  11. dave says:

    OK, brother, this is the third time I’ve responded to one of your posts, so even though I disagree with your often dogmatic approach, I like your free-thinking and opinionated and well-researched approach.

    The reason I am posting is your line: “Conventional wisdom is most often, wrong. The field is irrelevant- the principle applies to literally any area of interest one can imagine.”

    I couldn’t agree with this more, but it is impossible to get this point across. It holds true nearly every time it is tested. I’ve been thinking about starting a blog based on this premise alone…basically taking a widely held belief and taking it apart. Which, is sort of what you do on this blog. And while I tend to disagree with you on some of the finer points, my contention is that your point of view is closer to the truth (let’s be honest, perception is reality, and the truth as Howard Zinn so perfectly proved, is almost always different for everyone).

    But, the premise still holds up. And that is because counterintuition takes time and thought and it is easier to believe what seems logical on the surface than to dig deeper to find what is really going on below the surface. So, while the truth may differ depending on our viewpoint, it is almost never the knee-jerk reaction that we have initially.

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